Gas Prices

With gas prices skyrocketing, when in the world are the car manufacturers
introduce cars that give decent gas mileage? By 'decent', I don't mean a
promised 30 mpg, but 50 or 60 mpg. We all know it can be done. But
instead, I keep seeing ads on TV for SUV's and sports cars that have 300+
horsepower or out-accelerate a SAAB jet. How far out of touch with
consumers are those ads?
Of course, it really takes the politicians pushing the oil companies' hands
out of their pockets, so how realistic is my hope of relaxing government
regulations on emissions and safety to allow more fuel efficiency? In
Europe, they have cars that get much better mileage and still have good
performance. Countries like Germany and France are VERY 'green' oriented,
so we should be able to live with their standards. Over half of their cars
are diesels, also, so why not have them here? Regulations.......
Speaking of Europe, I was on CNN's website and looked up worldwide gas
prices. I was amazed to see that gas prices in France and Germany are STILL
about $5.40 a gallon, which is what they were the last time I was there two
years ago! While our prices have more than doubled in that time period,
their prices have stabilized. How can that be unless we are really being
gouged? This brings us back, once again, to politicians allowing such
things to happen. Even more amazing is that gas in Puerto Rico is only
$1.80 a gallon! Gas in Venezuala is $0.12 per
gallon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do we stop this gouging and get fuel efficient cars????? We are
basically screwed because we have absolutely no say in the situation.
Hyundai probably has the cars we need but aren't allowed to introduce them.

Tom

 

Okay, this is just one man's opinion, and I am not pointing a finger at
myself or anyone in this group. But Consumer Reports (which, I understand,
is NOT the favorite magazine of a number of people in this group), gave a
"head's-up" a few years ago to what may be going on.

As I recall the article, they talked about how technological improvements
are constantly happening incrementally in the car business. But marketing
ultimately decides where those improvements are going to be focused on and
added when achieved.

For a huge number of years now, most of the incremental improvements have
had to go to the latest chapter of the auto world's "horsepower contest,"
with the rest going to safety and cleaner air.

This is because, for years, in surveys, auto owners were putting fuel
economy way down on their list of priorities, and horsepower (followed by
safety) at the top. A good number of the auto and truck commercials we see
and hear bear that out, as does the emergence of ridiculous, slobbing gas
hogs like the "hemi" engine (but at least they are in "safe" vehicles).

Consumer Reports complained that these technological improvements should
always be balanced, with some going to fuel economy, some going to cleaner
air, etc. rather than virtually all of it to horsepower. They also said
that this will become especially important, "If the days of plentiful and
cheap gas suddenly come to an end." It appears that has happened, and the
auto industry, thanks to consumers, even until just a few months ago, was
caught flat-footed.

Obviously, now technology is going to turn hard and fast towards fuel
economy, especially since I think there is wide-spread agreement that we now
have enough horsepower industry-wide, and safety has also made huge strides.
But it is going to take time.

But watch for these improvements as the next generations of vehicles and
engines are released in the years to come.

Tom Wenndt

 

It's very simple. We all want 50mpg, but not enough of us are willing to
trade room, comfort, and performance for mileage. Physics prevent 3000+
pound vehicles from getting 50mph. It just won't happen until they lose
weight.

That just isn't true.

Almost every manufacturer has small "concept cars" that get 50mpg, but they
are mostly to gage consumer reaction. Believe me, you wouldn't like the
rough ride, noise, cramped seating, and poor acceleration those little
concept cars have.

Of course when the gas prices rocket past $5 a gallon, the doodlebugs will
start looking better.

 

It can't be done in a car that many people want to buy. Only some of
the very small "city cars" can come close to this, and they aren't
practical for 98% of the needs in the USA.

When people start buying fuel efficient cars rather than SUVs, the car
makers will respond with more fuel efficient models. Honda and Toyota
have made fuel efficient cars forever almost. Until very recently,
check their sales figures of Corollas and Echos as compared to SUVs.

Matt

 

Well, Matt, you're wrong! While in England, I rented a full sized MB and
carried four people all around the country for a week. We averaged 50 mpg
on the diesel. That leads me to believe that it CAN be done. Imagine if
we did it to a Chevy Cobalt, what the mileage would be!
You're right about the willingness of people to buy SUV's and big pickups.
Their day will come. I owned a full size truck for 30 years until last year
when I finally saw the light and sold my last one. Now to get rid of the
minivan! ) My Honda Civic at 40 mpg gets most of the use.

Tom

 

Sorry, I don't believe that you averaged 50 MPG (even they were imperial
gallons) while in England with a full-size MB. And when I lived in
England many years ago, they sold fuel by the liter, not the gallon, and
mileage was computed in liters/100km, not MPG. I also don't believe
that your Civic gets 40 MPG most of the time, unless you are able to
drive downhill most of the time.


Matt

 

Well, you appear a hard 'nut' to crack! First of all, I am capable of
converting liters to gallons and dividing miles by gallons. Yes, despite
your skepticism, that's the mileage we acheived. Frankly, I don't care if
you believe me or not. That's what I got. I even visited a MB dealer here
to get some parts, and mentioned my mileage in England. He told me that,
yes, they are getting reports of similar results.

Secondly, what's so strange about 40 mpg on a Civic with a 5 speed? If you
don't drive like an idiot, it's acheivable. Look at the new Civic. They
still claim that figure. The Toyota Carolla also claims that amount.
Again, I don't care if you believe me or not. That's what I get.

Tom

 

I believe you. I think you can get 40mpg occasionally in this car under near
ideal conditions. But not 50 as in the original question. But again, look at
the car. It's quite way small for most Americans, and the ride is not quite
acceptable to owners of larger cars. But,,, as the gas prices rise, they
will begin to be accepted.

50mpg isn't happening in a roomy comfortable car. At least not until the
weight problem is addressed, or there is a major breakthrough in another
type of motivation other than the reciprocating engine.

 

My Father gets just a hair under 40 MPG in his 2005 Civic MT. The last
time I looked at his numbers, it was actually 39.85 if I remember
correctly. Round that off to 40. He does about 75% highway, and he
doesn't believe in going over 55 MPH.

Eric

 

Those are highway figures and few people are able to drive in a highway
mode 100% of the time as you suggested.

Matt

 

If someone buys a large car that gets poor mileage then they only have
themselves to blame. My '03 Accent is getting app 36mpg. Not as good
as a hybrid, but it was less than half the price. I don't like paying
(as of yesterday) just under $3/gallon, but I'm dealing with it quite
nicely.

 

Thanks for the substantiation, Eric. 75% highway and 25% city yields 40
mpg. I don't believe I ever said I got 50 mpg with my Civic. I said that I
wish we could get cars that yield at least that mileage. It's certainly
possible, Bob, with the same weight car if we improve efficiencies and use
diesels, as is done in Europe. We, in the US, have this misguided concept
that diesels are bad news based on the ill-fated diesels of the '70's, which
were converted gas models. To make matters worse, people didn't maintain
them with proper oil and filter changes, which are required. I tried and
tried to find a VW diesel before buying my Hyundai, but VW treated the few
available as treasures to be rewarded to the highest bidder at well over
MSRP, which, to me, is absolutely crazy. Why would anyone pay more than
what the manufacturer says it is worth. That's like going to the grocery
store and insisting on paying double for your steaks. Same goes for the
Prius. $5000 over MSRP the last time I asked......

 

The first rule of any business is give the people what they want, If you try
to force people into what you want them to drive, You won't sell many cars.
Fuel in Europe has been very expensive for a very long time and in a large
part of Europe you can't drive at the speeds or the distances that we do
here. The other thing to consider is that the cars there don't have the same
safety or emission requirements that we have, Therefore the cars there are
lighter and less restricted. Try bringing a gray market car into the U.S.
and you'll find out just what the differences are.
I believe that the gasoline in Europe is made without the additives that are
mandated by law in the US.
The manufacturers aren't out of touch with the consumers here, The consumers
are out of touch with the rest of the world.
When it became cost prohibitive to drive my Ford Super Duty V10 back and
forth to work every day (80 mile roundtrip) I bought a 2005 Hyundai Accent,
It is an acceptable daily driver and gets three times the MPG of my truck. I
had to keep the truck for pulling my 30' travel trailer as the Hyundai isn't
quite up to that job. ;c)
I am not willing to give up my truck or my wives Grand Marquis just because
it now cost more to drive them.
Not yet anyway.

Jack Cassidy

 

Just curious - how did you look at his numbers?

Matt

 

While I was accessing my PC at home from his PC at his house, I sneeked a
peek at his "recent documents" folder. In there was a "mileage.xls" file.
I opened it up and there it was.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that MOST people get that kind of
mileage with their Civic, but I do believe that there are a few that do
regularly. My Father being one of them.

I'll wait to see where you take it from here, but I will tell you this:
Ten years ago my Father could never have done an Excel spreadsheet, but
since his retirement he has taken at least 20 computer courses at the local
community college. I don't have too much doubt that he is a little better
with them than I am at this point.

I should also add that the 75% highway he drives is just an educated guess.
I know his daily route, so it is a good guess, but it could be more like
80%.

Eric

 

You're preaching to the choir, buddy. I am a big fan of diesels in certain
situations.

They are heavy (low specific power), but this is can be offset by efficiency
and power characteristics (namely, torque).

We must be cautious about diesel fuel itself, because it takes more oil to
make a gallon if diesel than to make a gallon of gasoline. So in the end,
diesel will cost about the same per BTU as gasoline.

I don't get why hybrids don't use diesels. Seems to me that would be a
killer 1-2 punch. Electric motors supply great acceleration that diesels
lack, the diesel excels at economical cruising which is the gas burner's
weakness.

 

Hello? Earth to GM, are you listening GM?

 

I've often said the same thing about using diesels in hybrids. It makes
soooo much sense.

 

So, why is it that the SmartCar (Swatch/Mercedes/Chrysler) is available
across the border for sale to Canadians and not to US folk? A Canadian
dealer will not sett the car to a non-Canadian resident and they claim the
car cannot be registered in the US even if you can get one into the US, say
paying a used one from a friend. So then, where is the so-called "free
market"? Canadians have been driving the Smart car for years get 50 - 60
plus miles per gallon and here in Vermont and the rest if the US we cannot
buy one. Why is that? Why the manipulation? Don't tell me it's EPA
standards. That can be dealt with given the will power.
http://www.thesmart.ca/index.cfm?ID=4720

 

It sounds like he knows what he is doing. I'd venture to say that most
people haven't a clue how to correctly compute their fuel economy, not
just doing the simple calculation correctly, but averaging over enough
tanks to get an accurate number. Many people I know only check their
mileage when they take a long trip. They then tell everyone that their
Buick "averages" 30 MPG. That is simply hogwash, but it happens all of
time.


Matt