Help! Does anyone know anything about smogging their car?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pamela G.
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Pamela G.

Crud. I feel like I'm about to be pouring money down an endless pit.

I went to get a smog check for my 1991 Hyundai Excel. It flunked. The
guy showed me the printout and pointed to where it says the car can only
have a maximum of 847 polluting points, and my car showed 2,559 points,
making it a Gross Polluter. He said I need a new catalytic converter and
then it would pass.

I drove two blocks away and had the muffler guy install a new one for
$95.......I drive right back and have it tested again, and would you
believe it went from 2,559 points, to 3,428 Gross Polluting points!!!!
It actually tested WORSE with a new converter!!!

So now I'm asking him what happened?? How can this be? He tells me that
I should drive the car around and put about 50 miles on it and then he
will retest it and maybe it will pass?? I said what if it doesn't? He
said maybe you need and new ECR, or PCV, or some other 3 initial type
valve.......I'm so ticked off.

Does anyone have any advise for me? And how can my test results WORSEN
after I just put a new converter on??
 
The reason is for the worse results is that your original converter wa
probably fine and that new converters that can be installed for $95 don'
cost enough to cover the cost of the precious metals necessary to do
good job. Can you have the original one put back on? You don't want t
hear the price of a new factory converter. It'll probably be close t
$1000.

To help you find out what may be wrong with the car, I'll need to know wh
it failed. "Polluting points" don't give me much information, and in fact
I've never even heard the term "polluting point." I'm interested in th
HC, CO, NOx, and any other specific readings that were taken, and th
maximum/minimum reading in each category. Also let me know what sort o
test was done (e.g. dynamometer, idling tailpipe)
 
After I read your post I jumped in the car and flew back to the muffler
shop to retrieve my old catalytic converter. I was shocked to find that
the muffler shop owner WOULD NOT let me have it!!...He said that the
state collects those from him and he has to have an old one for each new
one he sells ....Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.....but I wasn't going
to argue as it wouldn't of helped.

Yes, I don't think they're called polluting points either...lol! I
tried to scan the printout so I could post the numbers but my darn
scanner just went on the fritz. I'm thinking that posting a photo using
my camera would probably be too small to read. Would you happen to have
a fax number that I could zap you the page to?
 
Pamela G. said:
After I read your post I jumped in the car and flew back to the muffler
shop to retrieve my old catalytic converter. I was shocked to find that
the muffler shop owner WOULD NOT let me have it!!...He said that the
state collects those from him and he has to have an old one for each new
one he sells ....Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.....but I wasn't going
to argue as it wouldn't of helped.
Click to expand...

They have high scrap value. I'm not sure of the number but we are talking
over $50, not pennies that steel alone would bring.
 
Sounds like BS to me, too. Not sure what state you're in, or what thei
regulations are, but that sounds rather odd. The scrap value is indee
high, as Edwin states. Check your local regulations about return of ol
parts. Most jurisdictions have laws that require shops to return parts t
customers at their request. Since you left without requesting the parts
you may no longer have standing, but by the same token, they still had i
and refused to give it to you. The local BBB or consumer assistanc
office may be able to help you on this.

As far as the numbers go, just type them in. I suspect there are abou
four readings. Just tell me the heading, the reading, and the max/mi
allowable entry
 
The reason is for the worse results is that your original converter was
probably fine and that new converters that can be installed for $95 don't
cost enough to cover the cost of the precious metals necessary to do a
good job. Can you have the original one put back on? You don't want to
hear the price of a new factory converter. It'll probably be close to
$1000.

To help you find out what may be wrong with the car, I'll need to know why
it failed. "Polluting points" don't give me much information, and in fact,
I've never even heard the term "polluting point." I'm interested in the
HC, CO, NOx, and any other specific readings that were taken, and the
maximum/minimum reading in each category. Also let me know what sort of
test was done (e.g. dynamometer, idling tailpipe).
Click to expand...

I learned a lesson about cheap cat convertors with my Dodge truck. A
shop had the cats advertised for $119 installed. I had one put on and
the truck passed smog, but the when the next smog test cycle after
that came around it failed. I had to have another new cat put on.
The next one I had installed cost $400 plus labor. It remains for me
to find out how long this one will get me through the smog checks.
Longer than the $119 one, I hope.

Old_Timer
 
I learned a lesson about cheap cat convertors with my Dodge truck. A
shop had the cats advertised for $119 installed. I had one put on and
the truck passed smog, but the when the next smog test cycle after
that came around it failed. I had to have another new cat put on.
The next one I had installed cost $400 plus labor. It remains for me
to find out how long this one will get me through the smog checks.
Longer than the $119 one, I hope.
Click to expand...

Your experience may well be reflective of cheap parts quality, but it may
also be reflective of other things. Cats usually hold up - even cheap ones.
That is, unless you have other problems. Engine misfires will eat up cats.
Many people overlook engine misfire codes since they are somewhat transient.
The ramifications of these transients can be expensive though.
 
A-ha! That explains why he wouldn't remove his grubby little paws off
the converter! That's a nice chunk of change. I'm surprised that crooks
haven't resorted to stealing those for scrap. ( I guess technically that
just happened to me..Ha!)

Heck, it's pretty bad here in California as they are digging through
parks and school yards ripping out the copper wire to sell for scrap.
 
 
A-ha! That explains why he wouldn't remove his grubby little paws off
the converter! That's a nice chunk of change. I'm surprised that crooks
haven't resorted to stealing those for scrap. ( I guess technically that
just happened to me..Ha!)

Heck, it's pretty bad here in California as they are digging through
parks and school yards ripping out the copper wire to sell for scrap.

*********************************

I've not heard of it locally, but I understand they are being stolen in some
places, rigt from under your parked car. As for copper, a nearby church
had copper roof flashing stolen during Good Friday services.
 
A-ha! That explains why he wouldn't remove his grubby little paws off
the converter! That's a nice chunk of change. I'm surprised that crooks
haven't resorted to stealing those for scrap. ( I guess technically that
just happened to me..Ha!)
Click to expand...

I guess not. Didn't you say it was a day or two later that you went back to
him? How long should he hold the part, just in case you might decide you
want it back? What about core parts? It is common to require the old part
to be turned in as part of the price of the new part.

That said - converter theft is actually on the rise. Thieves have taken to
cutting them right off cars parked during the night.
 
From the California Department of Consumer Affairs web site :

NO (PPM): Oxides of nitrogen (more commonly called NOx) are odorless gases
that help form smog, and give smog its characteristic brown color. NO is
produced when temperatures in the combustion chambers exceed 2500 degrees
Fahrenheit. Excessive engine temperatures could be caused by a lean fuel
mixture, by retarded timing, by carbon buildup inside the combustion
chamber, or by a malfunctioning engine cooling system. The function of the
EGR System is to reduce NO. Unhealthy levels of NO emissions result in a
vehicle failing its Smog Check. NO is measured in parts per million (PPM).
 
Okay. The only category in which you've failed is NOx (oxides o
nitrogen). This occurs when combustion chamber temperatures get too hig
and the nitrogen in the air begins to react with the oxygen in the air.
So you'll need to check things that would make the combustion chambe
temperature too high.

1. Check the (coolant) thermostat. Make sure it's opening at the correc
temperature. If it opens at too high a temperature, your combustio
chamber temperatures can be excessive.

2. Check the ignition timing. Over-advanced ignition timing can caus
the fuel to burn prematurely and increase combustion chambe
temperatures.

3. Check the function of the entire EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation
system. The purpose of EGR is to introduce exhaust gases back into th
combustion chamber for the purpose of cooling. If any part of it doesn'
function properly, your combustion chamber temperatures will go up.
You'll need to make sure that the EGR solenoid is working, that the EG
valve is working, and the EGR passages are clear. You'll also need t
verify that the ECM commands the EGR valve to open at the proper time.

Of course, I don't expect that you'll be able to do any of this yourself.
Any good emissions diagnostic technician should already know what high NO
readings mean and should know to run the tests I've mentioned above.
also don't advocate just going out and replacing some of the parts.
There's no guarantee that will fix anything. If you want to take a chea
shot at passing, try running your tank to empty and refueling wit
premium. There's a possibility that'll compensate for over-advance
ignition timing, but by the same token, resetting the ignition timing i
fairly simple and cheap
 
Pamela said:
Hyundaitech, I'm in California, and the engine light isn't coming
on....not yet anyway...Ha!!

I took photos of the numbers. The yellow highlighter marks are from the
smog tech guy.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836/446301/527393/313605467.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836/446301/527393/313605234.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836/446301/527393/313605063.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836/446301/527393/313604916.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL836/446301/527393/313604631.jpg
Click to expand...
Did your car PASS the test last year, in CALIFORNIA ????

Your Excel is 17 years old, if it was not designed and maintained for
the CA emission standards .... it will never make it.
 
That's really pathetic! And as this economy continues to slide into the
toilet, these incidences are on the rise. If gas goes up too much higher
we all might have to put locking gas caps on our cars!!
 
Thanks Partner....wow, it doesn't say that a worn out catalytic
converter could be the culprit.......Dang, I just wasted $95
 
Thank you so much for the info and advise! You've given me a 1,000 times
more information than that nitwit who is supposedly a smog
technician!!!!!!

Again, there is no mention of a bad catalytic converter being the
possible problem. I blame both myself and that nitwit for this. When he
said my car failed, I asked him what I needed to fix it. He said it
needs a new catalytic converter. I drove a block away and had one
installed, drove right back and had it retested and it had a WORSE test
score. After I got home I looked at the inspection report and it said
"Catalytic Converter---PASS"........Why did that nimrod tell me I need a
new one when the report says it Passed!!! I'd like to kick him in the
nuts!!!!!

My first plan is to try that premium gas thing next Monday or
Tuesday....Unfortunately I just filled up my tank with el cheapo gas so
I'll have to burn all of that off first.

Again, thank you so much for educating me on this subject. I really,
really do appreciate it!

I will post my results next week. Got my fingers crossed :-)
 
Yes, it passed two years ago, and two years before and so on and so
on.....It's a California car, not from some other state. I suppose it's
just old now and going to be more problematic at these smog tests.

It really should be put to sleep :-)
 
A faulty catalytic converter can indeed be the cause of NOx pollution.
I've seen it before (once), and it was very difficult to find and fix.
The car's emissions were tested in another state and they had a differen
procedure. We eventually called a dealer in the other state, and the
were able to tell us that in their experience, if normal diagnostic
turned up no problems, that the catalytic converter was the likel
culprit.

Again, I'm going to put emphasis on the normal diagnostics. In your case
there's no reason to go replacing a catalytic converter until it's bee
verified that the other things I've mentioned are working properly.
That's effectively just guessing a part to replace and retesting to see i
it fixes the car. The computer in your car will report to a technicia
with the proper tooling significant information that will allow him to d
some of the diagnosis in a few minutes just by monitoring the data th
computer will show him.

When the report says that your converter passed, that means nothing mor
than it is present and doesn't appear to have been tampered with. I
doesn't indicate that it's functioning normally
 

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