OT - Ford F150 electric windows not working

Discussion in 'General Motoring' started by Jay-T, Jun 25, 2010.

  1. Jay-T

    Jay-T Guest

    This is off topic for this Hyundai group, but the relevant Ford Usenet
    groups have little activity, so I thought I'd try posting it here in case
    there are some generic answers that tend to apply to all vehicles:

    This is for a friend of mine. He has a 1997 F150 4WD XLT pickup truck with
    a 4.6L engine.

    The problem he is having is that both electric windows stopped working at
    the same time.

    Here is some additional information in case it helps. Before this happened,
    he was having a problem with the overhead light in the cab. To get the
    light to come on, he would need to push up on the ceiling near the light, so
    obviously there was some type of loose connection there. Now, I'm pretty
    sure he said that neither the electric windows nor the overhead light work
    at all.

    He did try checking and replacing/bypassing all of the fuses but that didn't
    work.

    Shortly before the electric windows stopped working, he had to replace the
    entire rear differential and axle. After that, everything was working. But
    about a day later he heard a noise in the universal joint and he had to drop
    the entire drive shaft and replace the rear universal joint. Immediately
    after putting the drive shaft and universal back together, the electric
    windows stopped working. I don't see how those two things could be related,
    but that is the sequence of events.

    He has the door panels off, and he was able to get some print-outs of the
    wiring diagram and what looks like the locations for various relays,
    switches, and a "GED"(?) or "GEM"(?) controller.

    Now, after all of that explanation and background, here are the questions:

    Ordinarily, how hard would something like this be for an experienced repair
    shop to diagnose and locate where the problem may be located and determine
    what need to be replaced or done to fix this? I know that electrical
    problems can be difficult to locate, but is there a fairly simple process
    that a shop can go through to locate the exact source of the problem the
    works in MOST cases? He doesn't have much money, so he can't afford to pay
    for hours and hours of time trying to locate the problem.

    Or, are there some things that he could do or check or try on his own to try
    to isolate where the problem is? For example, if he can find where some of
    the relays are located, can he try doing some type of jumper across each one
    to check to see if that solves the problem?

    He could also go to a junk yard and remove and buy various relays, switches,
    and the GED/GEM? etc., if that might be worth trying.

    Thanks for any ideas or suggestions.
     
    Jay-T, Jun 25, 2010
    #1
  2. Jay-T

    jp103 Guest

    My free advice, which is worth exactly that, is;

    1. Try to get a wiring diagram to see if the windows and light are on
    the same circuit. My guess is they are not.

    2. My guess, if both windows are inoperable, is that it is most likely
    a ground issue if fuses/relays check out ok.

    3. Replacing the universal is probably (99.9%) unrelated.

    4. A repair shop specializing in electrics would be the best option for
    service if it is beyond you/your friends abilities.
     
    jp103, Jun 25, 2010
    #2
  3. Jay-T

    Jay-T Guest

    Thanks. I'll pass on what you suggested. I don't think he thought about
    the ground issue as a possibility. I know I didn't.
     
    Jay-T, Jun 25, 2010
    #3
  4. Jay-T

    Ed Pawlowski Guest

    Very strong possibility, especially since the dome light worked by pushing
    on the headliner

    Maybe not directly. If something was marginal, like a connector or ground,
    jacking the chassis could have indirectly caused a problem by breaking a
    wire, dislodging a connector or something like that.


    Another possibility after seeing some automotive engineering is the power
    windows work by a belt drive system to the driveshaft for power. I'd write
    to Rube Goldberg and ask.
     
    Ed Pawlowski, Jun 26, 2010
    #4
  5. Jay-T

    hyundaitech Guest

    Somehow, I don't think Rube will be replying.

    The typical method for diagnostics for this sort of problem is to
    start at the master switch (and other switch if appropriate). From
    there, you can see what power (and ground) are present at the switch,
    and what is transmitted from the switch to the window motor. If the
    driver's door panel is off, it's then also a simple matter to see what
    actually reaches the window motor.

    That being said, I know that there has been a problem in some F-series
    with the wires breaking in the loom between the door and body. If you
    know there's a certain wire which has power (or ground) at one end but
    not the other, simply tug on it and see if it pulls out of the loom.
     
    hyundaitech, Jul 7, 2010
    #5
  6. Jay-T

    Jay-T Guest

    Thanks. Very interesting.

    My friend has the door panels off and we both just spent a little time this
    morning trying to sort things out. I brought a 12 volt test light and a
    battery-powered continuity checker with me.

    We unplugged that electric windows master switch and used the test light to
    see if power was getting to the switch. We checked all of the wires going
    into the switch and no power shows up on any of them. Other switches, such
    as the electric doors locks, show one wire with power coming in -- but there
    is no power to the electric windows master switch.

    With the test light, we were also able to check all of the fuses in the main
    fuse block under the hood, and all of the fuses showed power on both sides
    of the fuse with the fuse in place. We also took each fuse out and there is
    power to one side of each fuse connection socket.

    At the same time, we realized that there are relays in the main fuse block
    and in a secondary block next to that. Since there were multiple relays of
    the same type (two different types overall), we tried switching relays
    around in case one of them was bad and hoping that by replacing a bad one
    with a good one, the problem would be fixed. But that didn't do anything.

    So, I'm guessing that means the relays are okay and the fuses are okay, and
    that the problem may be that there is a broken power wire somewhere between
    the fuse block and relay area and the master electric windows switch. We
    had to stop for a while, so that is where we left things for now.

    My friend says that he has a wiring diagram that should show him which wire
    at the master switch is supposed to have power. Then we can try to figure
    out where the other end of the same color-coded wire is in or around the
    fuse block and relay area. If we can find that, maybe we can use the
    continuity checker to see if there is continuity from one end to the other
    or if the wire is broken somewhere along the way.

    I wasn't sure how to go about checking for grounds or how to know which wire
    at the switch is supposed to be the the ground wire. But I guess that if
    there is no power to the switch, it is probably not a ground issue.
     
    Jay-T, Jul 8, 2010
    #6
  7. Jay-T

    jp103 Guest

    If you can determine the live wire position to the master switch it may
    be easier to just run a new power wire, temporarily, to see if it is the
    main power. Easier then trying to trace it back to the fuse block I
    would think.
     
    jp103, Jul 9, 2010
    #7
  8. Jay-T

    Jay-T Guest

    Thanks. That's what we ended up doing. We found the live wire postion to
    the master switch and then temporarily connected a new power wire to it.
    That made everything work.

    Now the plan is to figure out running a new/replacement power wire to the
    master switch. If we can find where it begins at the fuse box, we can
    replace the wire and have it run off of the original fuse. If not, we may
    have to run a new wire from a main poswer source and put an in-line fuse in
    that wire.


    **********************
    PRIOR POSTS:
     
    Jay-T, Jul 9, 2010
    #8
  9. Jay-T

    hyundaitech Guest

    Since you've identified the wire, also remove the kick panel trim (or
    whatever else is blocking the vehicle end of the harness) and pull the
    broken wire through to the inside of the cab. Solder on a new length
    of wire, feed back through the loom, and solder again on the section
    inside the door. Ideally, you'll want one solder joint inside the cab
    and the other inside the door. If the solder joint is in the flexible
    loom, it'll tend to lead to premature breakage in the area of the
    joint since the joint doesn't flex.
     
    hyundaitech, Jul 21, 2010
    #9
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