What to do to a new Elantra?

[Brian Nystrom]

This is especially true for the parking brake. They die from rust long
before they will wear out. I use mine every time I park and I've never
had a cable seize.

That's interesting, as I rarely use mine and it's been fine, too. In a
poll about this on the Elantra Club site, the results seemed to indicate
that seized cables were actually more of a problem on cars where the
E-brake was used frequently. Typical driving conditions weren't
specified, so it's hard to draw any solid conclusions. However, it seems
logical that all else being equal, an E-brake that's used more often
will wear the cable seals faster and draw more moisture and foreign
material into the cable. In dry environments, it's probably a non-issue,
as moisture is the main problem. In damp areas, it could be a problem.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't use their E-brake when they
need to, but unnecessary use may actually be detrimental to the life of
the cables on the Elantra.

 

[Matt Whiting]

Doe the "anti-seize" some places (Wal-Mart, for instance) insist on putting
on have a similar effect? If it does, should they be reducing the torque to
some extent? BTW: I watch them like a hawk, and pre-mark the destination
location for the wheels with a sharpie on the wheel. The can't seem to
follow instructions regarding cross-forward, but they are cheap, and fast.

I don't know what the lubrication properties are of all of the
anti-seize compounds, but the one I use (Permatex) clearly advertises
that it is an anti-seize lubricant, however, I've never seem
instructions to change the spark plug torque due to the use of anti-seize.

I don't use it on lug nuts so I don't know the effect there, but I
suspect it would be similar to using standard grease. It is desirable
that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when using the factory
torque values, however, I'll err on clean and slightly greasy/oily as
opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded off due to rust and keep
applying grease to the part of the stud that is exposed beyond the lug nut.

I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a
manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that
inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air operated
tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will give the
save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug nut.

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

That's true, but you've completely lost sight of the intent of torque
settings, which is to create a specific amount of tension in the stud.
It's an indirect setting - since there's no easy way to directly check
the stud tension - and it relies on certain conditions in order to
achieve the desired tension. The recommended torque settings are for
clean, dry studs and nuts.

If the studs/nuts are rusty/corroded, the increased friction will result
in the torque setting being reached before there is optimum tension in
the stud. This is not ideal, but it's not typically going to cause a
problem, since the increased friction also makes it less likely that a
nut will loosen.

OTOH, if the studs/nuts are lubricated, the reduced friction results in
the recommended torque setting not being reached until the tension in
the stud is higher than desired. The result can be stretching and
eventual failure of the stud. It is not always obvious when stretching
occurs.

If you have any mechanical inclination at all, you can easily feel when
a fastener yields. I've yielded a number of bolts in my day and you can
easily feel when the movement continues with no additional resistance.
It is a very sickening feeling...

As for asking Hyundai, I didn't mean to ask them if stud failures are a
problem, I meant ask them whether they recommend lubricating studs and
lug nuts. I'm betting the answer will be to clean off any rust or
corrosion and install them dry.

Yes, that is the recommendation of most manufacturers. This is far less
ideal than using properly lubricated fasteners (note that virtually all
other fasteners on a vehicle, particularly those in the engine and
transmission, call for lubricated fasteners. However, it acknowledges
the reality that you can't count on the typical gas station/Wal-Mart
place to properly lubricate the studs. Thus they provide a higher
torque value and specify dry fasteners. An oiled fastener will yield
much more consistent torque values than will a dry fastener.

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

I keep mine rust-free by brushing off any rust, if necessary. Since the
car comes with capped nuts, that's not even an issue. The chart you
provide proves my point about lubrication.

Yes, as I said at the outset, I don't use any grease if I have capped
style lug nuts. Only ones where the stud is exposed through the nut and
not protected from road salt and water.

And brushing off rust doesn't return the surface to its original "clean
and dry" condition. The pitting remains and will dramatically alter the
tension that a given fastener torque will yield.

I never questioned your point about the affect of lubrication on the
torque/tension relationship. I'm simply saying that fasteners
maintained in "like new" condition by the use of grease to prevent rust
is preferable to letting the fasteners rust and then brushing off the rust.

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

That's interesting, as I rarely use mine and it's been fine, too. In a
poll about this on the Elantra Club site, the results seemed to indicate
that seized cables were actually more of a problem on cars where the
E-brake was used frequently. Typical driving conditions weren't
specified, so it's hard to draw any solid conclusions. However, it seems
logical that all else being equal, an E-brake that's used more often
will wear the cable seals faster and draw more moisture and foreign
material into the cable. In dry environments, it's probably a non-issue,
as moisture is the main problem. In damp areas, it could be a problem.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't use their E-brake when they
need to, but unnecessary use may actually be detrimental to the life of
the cables on the Elantra.

I haven't looked at an Elantra in particular so I can't comment on it
specifically. However, almost all cars I've owned in the last 30 years
had a place where the bare cable exits the cable sheath. This is often
inside the rear brake, however, on many cars it is external to the brake
and really exposed to road salt. If this cable is never moved, it will
rust right up to where it enters the sheath seal. Then when you go to
apply the brake, this rusted part is pulled into the seal which at the
very least destroys the seal. Alternativley it refuses to enter the
sheath rendering the brake ineffective or, worse yet, enters the sheath
and binds inside causing the brake to refuse to fully release.

Even the cables that exit the sheath inside the backing plate are still
exposed to moisture and brake dust which can cause them to bind. Using
the brake regularly will move this cable and remove the surface rust
before it can form a huge annulus that can't be knocked off. This is
the same as brake rotors. Use then often, and the small amount of
surface rust is removed each day keeping the rotors pristine. Let them
sit unused for say 6 months (excluding SS rotors obviously) and see what
they look like. And at that point the pits are so deep that the pads
can't remove them and they will eat the pads in a hurry. Same principle
applies to the brake cable and the sheath seal.

Matt

 

[unkadunk]

I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72'
Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, and
never in these many years have I had a single one come even remotely loose
(ish), much less be hard to take off. They're always nice and tight, but a
good grunt loosens them and they spin off easily.

What I think is bad is having to -stand- on the tire bar or put an
extension pipe on to loosen nuts that were put (back) on by the dealer/tire
store. That happens all the time. Having to do that must put a horrific
strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is
supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me.

Never happens when I lube'em up. And the threads stay clean as a whistle.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

If you have any mechanical inclination at all, you can easily feel when
a fastener yields. I've yielded a number of bolts in my day and you can
easily feel when the movement continues with no additional resistance.
It is a very sickening feeling...

I know what you mean, but considering the damage I've seen other people
do, I suspect that the natural tendency is: "If it don't feel tight,
keep crankin' on it." ;-)

Yes, that is the recommendation of most manufacturers. This is far less
ideal than using properly lubricated fasteners (note that virtually all
other fasteners on a vehicle, particularly those in the engine and
transmission, call for lubricated fasteners. However, it acknowledges
the reality that you can't count on the typical gas station/Wal-Mart
place to properly lubricate the studs. Thus they provide a higher
torque value and specify dry fasteners. An oiled fastener will yield
much more consistent torque values than will a dry fastener.

True.

 

[Mike Marlow]

I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72'
Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them,
and
never in these many years have I had a single one come even remotely loose
(ish), much less be hard to take off. They're always nice and tight, but
a
good grunt loosens them and they spin off easily.

What I think is bad is having to -stand- on the tire bar or put an
extension pipe on to loosen nuts that were put (back) on by the
dealer/tire
store. That happens all the time. Having to do that must put a horrific
strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is
supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me.

I never liked it when I heard lug nuts sing to me as I took them off either.

For the record (I know this is not relevant to the specific point of this
post - I'm just using the platform for a while,,,), the primary reason that
torque is speced and such a big deal made out of it on today's cars has
nothing at all to do with the studs on most cars. It has everything to do
with alloy wheels and cheap rotors. They warp.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

I too have greased/oiled/lubed the lug nuts of all my cars since my 72'
Mazda RX2 when I rotate or change tires. I hand tightened all of them, and
never in these many years have I had a single one come even remotely loose
(ish), much less be hard to take off. They're always nice and tight, but a
good grunt loosens them and they spin off easily.

The issue is not one of the lugs staying tight; proper torque and
tension will assure that.

What I think is bad is having to -stand- on the tire bar or put an
extension pipe on to loosen nuts that were put (back) on by the dealer/tire
store. That happens all the time. Having to do that must put a horrific
strain on the lugs themselves. Maybe that's how 'tight and dry' is
supposed to work. I don't like it, scares me.

No, that's not how it's supposed to work. That's the result of idiots
who don't know what they're doing. I won't deal with a tire shop that
doesn't use a torque wrench when installing wheels.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

I never liked it when I heard lug nuts sing to me as I took them off either.

For the record (I know this is not relevant to the specific point of this
post - I'm just using the platform for a while,,,), the primary reason that
torque is speced and such a big deal made out of it on today's cars has
nothing at all to do with the studs on most cars. It has everything to do
with alloy wheels and cheap rotors. They warp.

True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether
it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads.
The result is the same either way, warped rotors. Perhaps it's just
coincidence, but I've never had a warped rotor on any vehicle I've
owned. I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean
and dry.

 

[Mike Marlow]

True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether
it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads.
The result is the same either way, warped rotors. Perhaps it's just
coincidence, but I've never had a warped rotor on any vehicle I've owned.
I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean and dry.

I've never warped one either but it sure is a common problem today. As more
shops get away from torque sticks and use a real torque wrench, I expect
we'll see fewer of those problems.

 

[Matt Whiting]

True, which is why you don't want the lugs to be overtightened, whether
it's due to some idiot with an air impact gun or due to lubed threads.
The result is the same either way, warped rotors. Perhaps it's just
coincidence, but I've never had a warped rotor on any vehicle I've
owned. I've always used a torque wrench and always kept the studs clean
and dry.

Likewise, and I always keep my studs clean, rust-free and mostly dry
with just a touch of residual wheel bearing grease.

The lug nuts on my 15 year-old Chevy look as good as the day they left
the showroom. Not a spot of rust or pitting. A little grease does
wonders against road salt in PA and NY winters. If I lived in AZ then
I'd dispense with the grease altogether, but where I live it would be
lug stud suicide!

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

I've never warped one either but it sure is a common problem today. As more
shops get away from torque sticks and use a real torque wrench, I expect
we'll see fewer of those problems.

Are shops actually getting away from air wrenches for wheel
installation? I know of only one shop locally that consistently hand
torques wheels and they even mention this in their advertisements. I
drive 35 miles to get tires from this shop just for this reason. There
is one local garage that does my inspections that will hand torque at my
request, but I don't think they do so routinely. I know of no other
garage that does this, although I haven't had my car back to the Hyundai
dealer so I can't speak for them.

Matt

 

[Mike Marlow]

Are shops actually getting away from air wrenches for wheel installation?
I know of only one shop locally that consistently hand torques wheels and
they even mention this in their advertisements. I drive 35 miles to get
tires from this shop just for this reason. There is one local garage that
does my inspections that will hand torque at my request, but I don't think
they do so routinely. I know of no other garage that does this, although
I haven't had my car back to the Hyundai dealer so I can't speak for them.

Around here everything from Pep Boys to local shops uses torque wrenches
these days. It's almost unheard of to impact on a set of lugs now. They
run them on with an impact set to low torque and then torque them up with a
hand wrench. You still see some torque sticks, but not so many.

 

[Wayne Moses]

Reply to message from Matt Whiting <[email protected]> (Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:
58:14) about "Re: What to do to a new Elantra?":

MW> Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about
MW> fasteners, material properties and torque.

Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this
thread. ;-)

I too am a licenced PE and have been following this discussion with some
interest and must say that we must agree to disagree.

I agree in most part with Brian's viewpoint.

Torque specifications always imply clean dry unlubricated threads. What
amount of grease is 'lubricated' is subjective and we can have this
discussion till the cows come home.

I think we can all agree that if the studs are 'wiped clean' with a shop
rag (varying degrees of 'greasy', light assumed) then no real problem
regarding over-torqing. OTOH if I foolishly apply a dab of grease to the
studs then torque the nuts the tension in the bolt shank and the shear in
the thread roots will be greater than the manufacturer intended. None of us
know how close we would be to failure or how much margin is in the
specification.

I seem to recall the simple torque-tension formula

T = KDP

where K is a constant related to friction at the mating surfaces, D is root
diameter of the shank and P is the developed tension.

As we can easily see, decreasing the friction given the same applied torque
will result in increased tension.

I personally choose to have clean dry 'unlubricated' lugs on all my cars in
all road conditions (salty included), and to use a toque wrench, and my
wheels have never fallen off nor have the nuts been hard to remove.
Needless to say the nuts have not backed off either.

YMMV.

I changed the subject of this thread to one more appropriate.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <[email protected]> Wed, 02 Jan 2008 07:22:08 -0600

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[Matt Whiting]

Reply to message from Matt Whiting <[email protected]> (Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:
58:14) about "Re: What to do to a new Elantra?":

MW> Also, I'm a licensed professional engineer and know a little bit about
MW> fasteners, material properties and torque.

Uh oh .. I was waiting to see when that was going to crop up in this
thread. ;-)

This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time.

I too am a licenced PE and have been following this discussion with some
interest and must say that we must agree to disagree.

Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province?

I agree in most part with Brian's viewpoint.

Torque specifications always imply clean dry unlubricated threads. What
amount of grease is 'lubricated' is subjective and we can have this
discussion till the cows come home.

They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein
apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are
lubricated with any number of different lubricants from motor oil to dry
lubricants.

I think we can all agree that if the studs are 'wiped clean' with a shop
rag (varying degrees of 'greasy', light assumed) then no real problem
regarding over-torqing. OTOH if I foolishly apply a dab of grease to the
studs then torque the nuts the tension in the bolt shank and the shear in
the thread roots will be greater than the manufacturer intended. None of us
know how close we would be to failure or how much margin is in the
specification.

I seem to recall the simple torque-tension formula

T = KDP

where K is a constant related to friction at the mating surfaces, D is root
diameter of the shank and P is the developed tension.

As we can easily see, decreasing the friction given the same applied torque
will result in increased tension.

I personally choose to have clean dry 'unlubricated' lugs on all my cars in
all road conditions (salty included), and to use a toque wrench, and my
wheels have never fallen off nor have the nuts been hard to remove.
Needless to say the nuts have not backed off either.

I use grease on the exposed studs on my cars after properly torquing the
lug nuts and have never had the wheels fall off, nuts that are hard to
remove or any rust or deterioration of the fasteners and threads. If
you drive a car in an area with winter and road salt and don't have
fully covered lug nuts, then you WILL have rusted lug nuts and the
exposed lug studs will rust as will. Unprotected steel simply will not
tolerate salt-laden moisture for any length of time without surface
damage. And damaged thread surfaces will not longer torque properly.

Matt

 

[Wayne Moses]

Reply to message from Matt Whiting <[email protected]> (Tue, 25 Dec 2007 10:
08:50) about "Re: What to do to a new Elantra?":



MW> .... It is desirable that the lug studs and nuts be clean and dry when
MW> using the factory torque values, however, I'll err on clean and
MW> slightly greasy/oily as opposed to rusty with threads that are rounded
MW> off due to rust and keep applying grease to the part of the stud that
MW> is exposed beyond the lug nut.

MW> I wouldn't trust my wheel rotations to any shop that refuses to use a
MW> manually operated torque wrench. Proper torque values require that
MW> inertial effects be eliminated and that can't be done with air
MW> operated tools. Don't believe for a second that a "torque stick" will
MW> give the save value of lug stud tension as will a manually torqued lug
MW> nut.

Agreed 100% with all of the above. I have stopped using places that don't
torque nuts properly including those only using the torque sticks.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <[email protected]> Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:48:01 -0600

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[Mike Marlow]

They don't imply that at all. Most tables specify if the values therein
apply to dry fasteners, plated fasteners, or fasteners that are lubricated
with any number of different lubricants from motor oil to dry lubricants.

Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they specify
an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs that have
already been turned on several time versus brand new studs? I'm not arguing
with you Matt - I'm agreeing with you. I believe too much attention has
been focused on "book" material, while ignoring the real world of studs.

 

[Matt Whiting]

Do they then, also specify what the defintion of "dry" is? Do they specify
an acceptable amount of corrosion? Do they reference studs that have
already been turned on several time versus brand new studs? I'm not arguing
with you Matt - I'm agreeing with you. I believe too much attention has
been focused on "book" material, while ignoring the real world of studs.

Most mean "new" fastener threads when they say "clean and dry" and that
is the problem in the real world and the reason I apply grease to my
exposed studs AFTER I torque the nuts properly. This keeps the threads
in as nearly new condition as I possibly can in the PA/NY winters in
which I drive.

Matt

 

[Wayne Moses]

MW> This thread has been dead for a week. Try to keep up next time.

Wasn't dead when I found the time to drop by. Besides you being a licensed
engineer surely is not dead nor is the fact that it seemed to not matter to
those with viewpoints other than yours.

Personally I prefer to contribute when I can and I resist the temptation to
tell people what to do.

!

MW> Is licenced anything like licensed? Which state or province?

Does the answer to either question matter?

I will answer the second - New Brunswick and Ontario.

Best Regards
Wayne Moses <[email protected]> Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:35:56 -0600

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