Wheels/Snow Tires

[dkortz]

I would like to put a set of mounted snows on my '05 Elantra GT using
OEM replacement steel wheels. Will these (stock on the non-GT Elantra)
steel wheels fit the GT model without any clearance issues? Also, does
anyone have a suggestion (other than the dealer) for finding steel
wheels for the Elantra - it doesn't appear that TireRack stocks them
and I'm not familiar with any other source. I have about 32k on the
original Michelins and they would be OK for another season of summer
driving, but are not up to winter in northern NY. Thanks.

 

[Mike Marlow]

I would like to put a set of mounted snows on my '05 Elantra GT using
OEM replacement steel wheels. Will these (stock on the non-GT Elantra)
steel wheels fit the GT model without any clearance issues? Also, does
anyone have a suggestion (other than the dealer) for finding steel
wheels for the Elantra - it doesn't appear that TireRack stocks them
and I'm not familiar with any other source. I have about 32k on the
original Michelins and they would be OK for another season of summer
driving, but are not up to winter in northern NY. Thanks.

Junk yard.

I'd think twice about those tires though. Are they really that worn? I
drive All Season Radials for 60K on a regular basis, all through the
seasons, and I live north of Syracuse.

 

[nolife]

Junk yard.

I'd think twice about those tires though. Are they really that worn? I
drive All Season Radials for 60K on a regular basis, all through the
seasons, and I live north of Syracuse.

What brand and model tires are you using? I've never had an all season
tire that had acceptable snow traction after 25-35k miles. It seems
that one year they are great but 15K more miles and the next winter they
completely suck.
I fully agree with the concept of dedicated snow tires and rims. IMHO,
the cost is is reasonable and you will have much better traction in the
winter. I live further south now and do not swap out but I do keep a
set of cables/chains in the trunk of my 2003 Elantra just in case. They
take about 10 minutes to install. I only use them roughly once or twice
a year but well worth the ~$25 that Wal-mart sells them for..

 

[Mike Marlow]

What brand and model tires are you using? I've never had an all season
tire that had acceptable snow traction after 25-35k miles. It seems
that one year they are great but 15K more miles and the next winter they
completely suck.

Well, I've had everything from Michelin to Dunlop to PepBoys Futuras on my
vehicles. The worst I've ever owned were Generals. I'm in the snow belt
north of Syracuse and we get nearly 300" of snow a year. I've not owned a
snow tire in decades.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

Well, I've had everything from Michelin to Dunlop to PepBoys Futuras on my
vehicles. The worst I've ever owned were Generals. I'm in the snow belt
north of Syracuse and we get nearly 300" of snow a year. I've not owned a
snow tire in decades.

That doesn't mean that they're not a huge improvement over "all season"
crap tires, it just means that you're willing to tolerate having poor
traction and take the added risks of driving in winter on inferior
tires. The difference in snow/slush performance with dedicated winter
tires is night and day.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

I would like to put a set of mounted snows on my '05 Elantra GT using
OEM replacement steel wheels. Will these (stock on the non-GT Elantra)
steel wheels fit the GT model without any clearance issues?

There's no problem at all.

Also, does
anyone have a suggestion (other than the dealer) for finding steel
wheels for the Elantra - it doesn't appear that TireRack stocks them
and I'm not familiar with any other source.

I bought mine through a local tire dealer. He did have some trouble
locating them (over two years ago), but they're available. FWIW, I went
with Nokian Hakkapelitta 2 tires, size 185/65-15 and have been very
happy with them. You could also go with size 175/70-15 for a little
better bite through the deep stuff.

I have about 32k on the
original Michelins and they would be OK for another season of summer
driving, but are not up to winter in northern NY.

They really suck in the winter compared to real snows, even when they're
new. I think you'll be very happy with the performance of your snow tires.

 

[Mike Marlow]

That doesn't mean that they're not a huge improvement over "all season"
crap tires, it just means that you're willing to tolerate having poor
traction and take the added risks of driving in winter on inferior
tires. The difference in snow/slush performance with dedicated winter
tires is night and day.

We've had this discussion before Brian and I believe that if you want snow
tires, then by all means, put them on and enjoy. As I have stated in the
past, I drive for my business and it is not a matter of "tolerating poor
traction, and added risks". If I suffered poor traction, I would not
hesitate to employ a better solution. My point always has been, and
continues to be that with decades of experience behind me, good All Season
radials are plenty sufficient for winter driving.

I have never suffered a loss of control that a car with snow tires didn't, I
have never suffered an inability to start, stop or navigate that a car
equipped with snows didn't, and I have plowed snow with the grill of my car
with nothing more than good ASR tires. Likewise, in an area where we get a
lot of snow, the percentage of cars equipped with snow tires is
significantly less than those that successfully negotiate winter driving
conditions without them.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

We've had this discussion before Brian and I believe that if you want snow
tires, then by all means, put them on and enjoy. As I have stated in the
past, I drive for my business and it is not a matter of "tolerating poor
traction, and added risks". If I suffered poor traction, I would not
hesitate to employ a better solution. My point always has been, and
continues to be that with decades of experience behind me, good All Season
radials are plenty sufficient for winter driving.

I have never suffered a loss of control that a car with snow tires didn't, I
have never suffered an inability to start, stop or navigate that a car
equipped with snows didn't, and I have plowed snow with the grill of my car
with nothing more than good ASR tires. Likewise, in an area where we get a
lot of snow, the percentage of cars equipped with snow tires is
significantly less than those that successfully negotiate winter driving
conditions without them.

Yeah, you keep saying that and I'll keep telling people that there IS a
big difference.

How would you know anyway, since you don't even use snow tires? When was
the last time you installed a set on your car? Whenever I encounter this
type of resistance, it's invariably from someone who doesn't use winter
tires.

The fact that most people get by in winter with "all season" junk on
their cars doesn't mean that they wouldn't appreciate the difference
that dedicated winter tires make. In fact, everyone I've convinced to
try real winter tires has been amazed at the difference.

The reason that they're not more popular are obvious:

- Tire manufacturers, car manufacturers and people like you push ASR
tires, so most people incorrectly assume that they're actually good for
winter conditions.

- Many people are simply too cheap to spring for them.

- Oddly enough, many of the same people will waste thousands of dollars
on unnecessary - and in some cases ill handling - AWD and 4WD vehicles
when they would be better off with FWD and a set of snow tires (lower
initial cost, lower maintenance cost, better fuel mileage, etc). Go figure.

- Many parts of the country don't get enough snow to justify separate
winter tires.

By all means, do whatever you want on your own vehicle, but don't expect
me to agree with you.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

The reason that they're not more popular are obvious:

- Tire manufacturers, car manufacturers and people like you push ASR
tires, so most people incorrectly assume that they're actually good for
winter conditions.

- Many people are simply too cheap to spring for them.

You forgot to add "the roads are plowed much better and faster now than they
were years ago"

While you both make good points, I've not had a situation personally where a
better tire would have made a big difference. Maybe I'm just lucky. If I
lived on a more rural road, had a 2000 foot unplowed, rut filled, dirt
driveway, then yes, I've have a better winter tire. I live on a hill and
pull out of my driveway and make a left turn up the hill. In 25 years, I've
never gotten stuck, slid, or did not make it. I did have the traction
control kick in a couple of times That 500 feet is usually the worst part
of my commute.

Years ago, it was common to drive with snow tires and even chains over them
at times. In some parts of the country, it is still needed.

- Oddly enough, many of the same people will waste thousands of dollars on
unnecessary - and in some cases ill handling - AWD and 4WD vehicles when
they would be better off with FWD and a set of snow tires (lower initial
cost, lower maintenance cost, better fuel mileage, etc). Go figure.

Some people should not drive if a snowflake falls no matter what tires they
have. Going to work in the snow one day, I rounded a curve and saw a car
that was being towed out from the side where the woman slid off the road.
Evidently, it was a gentle slide and no damage was done because on the way
home, there she was again, on a different stretch of road where she slid off
again. Given that thousands of cars passed that same road all day and only
one managed to slide off (twice), you just have to wonder.

 

[Mike Marlow]

Yeah, you keep saying that and I'll keep telling people that there IS a
big difference.

That's certainly your perrogative.

How would you know anyway, since you don't even use snow tires? When was
the last time you installed a set on your car? Whenever I encounter this
type of resistance, it's invariably from someone who doesn't use winter
tires.

You seem to forget our conversation from this time last year about the same
topic. I explained that my best friend uses snows on his car and I've had
plenty of first hand direct comparison.

- Tire manufacturers, car manufacturers and people like you push ASR
tires, so most people incorrectly assume that they're actually good for
winter conditions.

What about the evidence from people who drive in the snow for years with no
problems using them? That's not evidence enough for you?

By all means, do whatever you want on your own vehicle, but don't expect
me to agree with you.

Hold that last line up to a mirror and read it to yourself.

 

[Matt Whiting]

We've had this discussion before Brian and I believe that if you want snow
tires, then by all means, put them on and enjoy. As I have stated in the
past, I drive for my business and it is not a matter of "tolerating poor
traction, and added risks". If I suffered poor traction, I would not
hesitate to employ a better solution. My point always has been, and
continues to be that with decades of experience behind me, good All Season
radials are plenty sufficient for winter driving.

I have never suffered a loss of control that a car with snow tires didn't, I
have never suffered an inability to start, stop or navigate that a car
equipped with snows didn't, and I have plowed snow with the grill of my car
with nothing more than good ASR tires. Likewise, in an area where we get a
lot of snow, the percentage of cars equipped with snow tires is
significantly less than those that successfully negotiate winter driving
conditions without them.

I'm with you Mike. My Chevy truck came with Goodyear AT tires which are
essentially all season tires for a truck. I plowed snow with them and
never even had to put my chains on, although a few times I probably
should have. When they got worn they didn't work as well as is to be
expected. I replaced them with the heaviest lug M&S tires I could find
since I plow a long driveway. I expected a dramatic increase in
traction. The difference in plowing traction was nothing more than I
would have expected from simply having new tires. However the different
in noise was dramatic. I never forget that I now have REAL mud and snow
tires on as they howl like crazy!


I believe that dedicated snow tires on a car are better in some
conditions than all season tires (deep snow, slush and ice), however,
they are also worse on wet and dry pavement. Even in northern PA, we
have at least 10:1 more winter days where the roads are wet or dry than
we do with snow, slush or ice. So the question for me is: Do I want
better traction in the conditions that prevail 90% of the time or 10% of
the time? This is an easy question for me to answer.


Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

That doesn't mean that they're not a huge improvement over "all season"
crap tires, it just means that you're willing to tolerate having poor
traction and take the added risks of driving in winter on inferior
tires. The difference in snow/slush performance with dedicated winter
tires is night and day.

Brian, I don't disagree with you here, but as I just wrote in reply to
Mike's post "I believe that dedicated snow tires on a car are better in
some conditions than all season tires (deep snow, slush and ice),
however, they are also worse on wet and dry pavement. Even in northern
PA, we have at least 10:1 more winter days where the roads are wet or
dry than we do with snow, slush or ice. So the question for me is: Do
I want better traction in the conditions that prevail 90% of the time or
10% of the time? This is an easy question for me to answer. "

If I lived in an area where snow, slush and ice prevailed more than 50%
of the winter days, then I'd almost certainly buy snow tires. However,
where I live the number of days with these conditions is, at best, 10%
of my driving days. I therefore optimize for the conditions that
prevail most of the time.


Matt

 

[']['unez]

Mike, 300" of snow per year, Im assumeing you must live in the Redfield/ Tug
Hill area. I lived in the Fulton/Mexico area for more years than I care to
remember and thats the only places that get that much snow EVERY FREAKIN
YEAR !!!!!!!!!!

']['unez

 

[nolife]

Well, I've had everything from Michelin to Dunlop to PepBoys Futuras on my
vehicles. The worst I've ever owned were Generals. I'm in the snow belt
north of Syracuse and we get nearly 300" of snow a year. I've not owned a
snow tire in decades.

I got grounded on some remote roads for hours going to a skiing trip in
WV last year with my factory supplied Michelin's on my 2003 Elantra.
It was a joke, cars going by me left and right while my son and I were
attempting to push my wife up the hills and bouncing and sitting on the
hood. There was only about 2 inches of snow. Tried everything out of
desperation, riding on the edge trying to get traction from the rocks,
in the grass, clearing a path with my feet, even tried the traction
control which did not help because of the rapid changes caused too much
erratic changes causing more problems. A few times the front end would
drift too far and slide off the road but we never actually left the road
completely. We finally gave up and sat around until and a resort
employee on his way to work pulled me with a tow strap the last 3 miles
to the resort with his Samuri (4x4 with all season tires oddly enough).
Being stuck out in the middle of absolutely nowhere is not a good
feeling. I still had at least 4/32 of tread left with about 35k miles
on those tires but ruined them tires from the constant spinning (chewed
up from at least an hour of trying). The previous year I made it around
with no problems where I live but I only have small rolling hills here.
I've had one of my 5.0 Mustangs in the snow a few times for one reason
or another. It was a joke and the AS tires are just a very small part
of that problem.
Obviously your luck was much better then mine but I'll keep the chains
in my trunk from now on.

 

[Mike Marlow]

Mike, 300" of snow per year, Im assumeing you must live in the Redfield/ Tug
Hill area. I lived in the Fulton/Mexico area for more years than I care to
remember and thats the only places that get that much snow EVERY FREAKIN
YEAR !!!!!!!!!!

The edge of it. Hastings/Parish. I generalize about the area in posts like
this because it does represent the typical driving conditions we encounter
during the winter. I probably receive somewhat less snow than Redfield in
any given storm, but we are not that far off seasonally. I spend alot of
time on the road within the Tug Hill area though. The entire Hill averages
closer to 300" than 200" most years. The last few sure have not been that
heavy though. I know that we do get a lot more than Fulton gets in any
given snowfall. It's funny how it goes (as you probably know) - it's like
there is a wall where all of a sudden the snow starts and it's like you
entered another zone on the planet.

 

[Mike Marlow]

We finally gave up and sat around until and a resort
employee on his way to work pulled me with a tow strap the last 3 miles
to the resort with his Samuri (4x4 with all season tires oddly enough).

You would not believe the mountains of snow that I have plowed with nothing
more than good ASR's on my truck. Of course, it's 4WD, but then again, it's
pushing a lot more load than any passenger car simply driving down the road.
I generally keep M&S tires on it but I have used simple ASR's in the past.

Being stuck out in the middle of absolutely nowhere is not a good
feeling. I still had at least 4/32 of tread left with about 35k miles
on those tires but ruined them tires from the constant spinning (chewed
up from at least an hour of trying).

I'm surprised you chewed off any amount of tread in that experience. With
that little traction - thus little coeffiecient of friction, I would not
expect you to wear off tread.

For me the big thing is the tread design. I look for big sipes and
channeling outward. Some might call it an aggressive tread. I stay
completely away from touring tires and the more contemporary tread designs
typical of today's low profile tires.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

You forgot to add "the roads are plowed much better and faster now than they
were years ago"

That's true. The roads around here (NH) are generally only a mess during
and immediately after storms. Cross the border into the People's
Republic of Massachusetts and it's a different story. ;-)

While you both make good points, I've not had a situation personally where a
better tire would have made a big difference. Maybe I'm just lucky. If I
lived on a more rural road, had a 2000 foot unplowed, rut filled, dirt
driveway, then yes, I've have a better winter tire.

That's really not the point. The difference in traction and control in
even moderate amounts of snow/slush/ice is substantial. Obviously, it's
not mandatory to have winter tires, but they really do help.

I live on a hill and
pull out of my driveway and make a left turn up the hill. In 25 years, I've
never gotten stuck, slid, or did not make it.

The last time I got "stuck" was many years ago and it was during the
heaviest storm I've ever seen. Snow was falling at 4" per hour! I got
bogged down in ~20" of snow when I pulled off into a side road near my
house so I could get out, walk home and clear the driveway. It took me
all of five minutes to kick enough snow away from car to get moving
again, so I don't know if "stuck" is even the right term.

I did have the traction
control kick in a couple of times That 500 feet is usually the worst part
of my commute.

Years ago, it was common to drive with snow tires and even chains over them
at times. In some parts of the country, it is still needed.

Yeah, times have changed, though I don't recall ever owning tire chains.

Some people should not drive if a snowflake falls no matter what tires they
have. Going to work in the snow one day, I rounded a curve and saw a car
that was being towed out from the side where the woman slid off the road.
Evidently, it was a gentle slide and no damage was done because on the way
home, there she was again, on a different stretch of road where she slid off
again. Given that thousands of cars passed that same road all day and only
one managed to slide off (twice), you just have to wonder.

I hear ya! In the past few years I've noticed an increase in the number
of cars I see off the side of the road on their roofs. These are cars,
mind you, not SUVs as one might expect. In many cases, it's not at all
clear how it happened. It seems that as cars get more sophisticated,
drivers rely more on technology and less on skill, largely because
they're told they can. Unfortunately, that technology often lets them
down when they need it most. Then again, some people should just never
be given a driver's license at all...

 

[Brian Nystrom]

I'm with you Mike. My Chevy truck came with Goodyear AT tires which are
essentially all season tires for a truck. I plowed snow with them and
never even had to put my chains on, although a few times I probably
should have. When they got worn they didn't work as well as is to be
expected. I replaced them with the heaviest lug M&S tires I could find
since I plow a long driveway. I expected a dramatic increase in
traction. The difference in plowing traction was nothing more than I
would have expected from simply having new tires. However the different
in noise was dramatic. I never forget that I now have REAL mud and snow
tires on as they howl like crazy!

There's a big difference between car and truck tires. We're talking cars
here, or at least I am.

I believe that dedicated snow tires on a car are better in some
conditions than all season tires (deep snow, slush and ice), however,
they are also worse on wet and dry pavement.

The difference is not much on dry pavement and the difference on wet
pavement depends on the amount of water. The more there is, the less the
difference.

Even in northern PA, we
have at least 10:1 more winter days where the roads are wet or dry than
we do with snow, slush or ice. So the question for me is: Do I want
better traction in the conditions that prevail 90% of the time or 10% of
the time? This is an easy question for me to answer.

That's a good point, but if the 10% of bad conditions causes 90% of the
problems...?

 

[Mike Marlow]

That's true. The roads around here (NH) are generally only a mess during
and immediately after storms. Cross the border into the People's
Republic of Massachusetts and it's a different story. ;-)

Yeahbut the real problem in the great state of oblivion is the drivers, not
the driving conditions. Volvo's ought to be made illegal...

The last time I got "stuck" was many years ago and it was during the
heaviest storm I've ever seen. Snow was falling at 4" per hour! I got
bogged down in ~20" of snow when I pulled off into a side road near my
house so I could get out, walk home and clear the driveway. It took me
all of five minutes to kick enough snow away from car to get moving
again, so I don't know if "stuck" is even the right term.

That's a big part of my position. I could make the very same statement,
using just radial tires. Now that we've both said that...

Yeah, times have changed, though I don't recall ever owning tire chains.

Ugh! I do. For my first car. Back in the days of bias ply tires.

I hear ya! In the past few years I've noticed an increase in the number
of cars I see off the side of the road on their roofs. These are cars,
mind you, not SUVs as one might expect. In many cases, it's not at all
clear how it happened. It seems that as cars get more sophisticated,
drivers rely more on technology and less on skill, largely because
they're told they can. Unfortunately, that technology often lets them
down when they need it most. Then again, some people should just never
be given a driver's license at all...

Therein lies what I believe to be the biggest downfall of technology in
cars. Not that I am opposed to technology at all, but the effect of certain
improvements is often a certain degradation.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

Brian, I don't disagree with you here, but as I just wrote in reply to
Mike's post "I believe that dedicated snow tires on a car are better in
some conditions than all season tires (deep snow, slush and ice),
however, they are also worse on wet and dry pavement. Even in northern
PA, we have at least 10:1 more winter days where the roads are wet or
dry than we do with snow, slush or ice. So the question for me is: Do
I want better traction in the conditions that prevail 90% of the time or
10% of the time? This is an easy question for me to answer. "

If I lived in an area where snow, slush and ice prevailed more than 50%
of the winter days, then I'd almost certainly buy snow tires. However,
where I live the number of days with these conditions is, at best, 10%
of my driving days. I therefore optimize for the conditions that
prevail most of the time.

And I just wrote "That's a good point, but if the 10% of bad conditions
causes 90% of the problems...?" I agree that much of the time they're
not necessary, but that's even more true of AWD and 4WD, yet look at how
many people buy vehicles with them. It's ironic that almost all of them
would be better off simply with better tires, or even with just checking
their tire pressures once in a while. ;-)