Wheels/Snow Tires

  • Thread starter Thread starter dkortz
  • Start date Start date
Brian Nystrom said:
I agree that much of the time they're not necessary, but that's even more
true of AWD and 4WD, yet look at how many people buy vehicles with them.
It's ironic that almost all of them would be better off simply with better
tires, or even with just checking their tire pressures once in a while.
;-)
Click to expand...

Most would be better off slowing down a bit too. I don't have any
statistics, but it seems as though many of the AWD and 4WD drivers think
they can steer and stop in snow the same as they drive all the time. I've
seen many of them by the side of the road. They don't comprehend the
difference between traction to move through deep snow versus traction on
slippery road. Slowing from 75 to 70 just doesn't do it., no matter what
tires you have.
 
Edwin said:
Most would be better off slowing down a bit too. I don't have any
statistics, but it seems as though many of the AWD and 4WD drivers think
they can steer and stop in snow the same as they drive all the time. I've
seen many of them by the side of the road. They don't comprehend the
difference between traction to move through deep snow versus traction on
slippery road. Slowing from 75 to 70 just doesn't do it., no matter what
tires you have.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! They don't understand that the extra traction that allows
them to accelerate to extra-legal speeds in snow means NOTHING when you
have to corner or stop. Many of the truck-based 4WD systems are actually
worse for cornering and stopping than FWD. Ignorant lemmings.
 
nolife said:
Mike Marlow wrote:



I got grounded on some remote roads for hours going to a skiing trip in
WV last year with my factory supplied Michelin's on my 2003 Elantra.
It was a joke, cars going by me left and right while my son and I were
attempting to push my wife up the hills and bouncing and sitting on the
hood. There was only about 2 inches of snow. Tried everything out of
desperation, riding on the edge trying to get traction from the rocks,
in the grass, clearing a path with my feet, even tried the traction
control which did not help because of the rapid changes caused too much
erratic changes causing more problems. A few times the front end would
drift too far and slide off the road but we never actually left the road
completely. We finally gave up and sat around until and a resort
employee on his way to work pulled me with a tow strap the last 3 miles
to the resort with his Samuri (4x4 with all season tires oddly enough).
Being stuck out in the middle of absolutely nowhere is not a good
feeling. I still had at least 4/32 of tread left with about 35k miles
on those tires but ruined them tires from the constant spinning (chewed
up from at least an hour of trying). The previous year I made it around
with no problems where I live but I only have small rolling hills here.
I've had one of my 5.0 Mustangs in the snow a few times for one reason
or another. It was a joke and the AS tires are just a very small part
of that problem.
Obviously your luck was much better then mine but I'll keep the chains
in my trunk from now on.
Click to expand...

Luck has little to do with it. While 1/8" of tread is still legal in
most states, it certainly isn't adequate in snow. And that has nothing
to do with the type of tire. No tire will give decent snow traction
with that little tread remaining.

I run my tires down to 2/32" generally, but only if that occurs during
the summer. I just replaced the tires on my minivan and they had a
little more than 2/32" left, but it was getting too close to winter to
risk running them longer.


Matt
 
Brian said:
Matt Whiting wrote:


That's a good point, but if the 10% of bad conditions causes 90% of the
problems...?
Click to expand...

It may for some folks, but I've driven in snow for 30+ years and it
hasn't been a problem. The only accident I've had occurred just last
December on a nice dry day ... I was hit by a drunk.


Matt
 
Brian said:
Absolutely! They don't understand that the extra traction that allows
them to accelerate to extra-legal speeds in snow means NOTHING when you
have to corner or stop. Many of the truck-based 4WD systems are actually
worse for cornering and stopping than FWD. Ignorant lemmings.
Click to expand...

Baloney. My truck will easily outrun either of my FWD minivan/cars in
the yucky stuff and is much more stable at speed. Why do you think
truck based 4WD systems are worse than FWD? Have you ever owned a 4WD
truck?

Matt


Matt
 
Matt Whiting said:
Baloney. My truck will easily outrun either of my FWD minivan/cars in the
yucky stuff and is much more stable at speed.
Click to expand...

What speed would that be? Surely, you don't think that any car is as stable
at 70 mph with an inch of snow/slush on the road as it is when dry. That
was my point. What was perfectly safe at 70+ is not very safe when the road
is covered, but some people just don't slow down until they are out of
control. Relatively speaking, you may be right, but not in absolute terms.
 
Edwin said:
What speed would that be? Surely, you don't think that any car is as stable
at 70 mph with an inch of snow/slush on the road as it is when dry. That
was my point. What was perfectly safe at 70+ is not very safe when the road
is covered, but some people just don't slow down until they are out of
control. Relatively speaking, you may be right, but not in absolute terms.
Click to expand...

I believe the claim was that in messy conditions a FWD car is better
than a 4WD truck. I don't believe that at all. I have two FWD vehicles
and a 4WD pickup. I'll drive the pickup over the FWD cars any day on a
snow covered or slushy road. The truck is heavier and less affected by
slush. It also handles better in deep snow and is less prone to
understeer and easier to recover from a skid should one occur. FWD cars
are very tricky to handle in a skid as the response required is nearly
opposite that for a RWD vehicle.


Matt
 
Matt Whiting said:
I believe the claim was that in messy conditions a FWD car is better than
a 4WD truck. I don't believe that at all. I have two FWD vehicles and a
4WD pickup. I'll drive the pickup over the FWD cars any day on a snow
covered or slushy road. The truck is heavier and less affected by slush.
Click to expand...

There are so many combinations of pickups and FWD vehicles that is just not
possible to make a general statement that one is better than the other. .
 
There are so many combinations of pickups and FWD vehicles that is
just not possible to make a general statement that one is better
than the other. .
Click to expand...

Not really taking a side here, just an anecdote. My old pickup with
part-time 4wd used to take technique to drive in the snow. Since there
was no differential in the transfer case, the front and rear wheels
were driven the same distance all the time. Any give between the two
came from wheel slippage. Thus, it was bad to use on dry pavement.
Also, on snow covered pavement, it was usually the front wheels that
would slide in a turn. Not a terrible out of control thing, it was
just that it really wanted to go straight instead of turning. It could
shift on the fly, so I got fairly adept at using 4wd to get up to
speed, and going back into rwd to make a corner, then getting back into
4wd. With a stickshift truck it looked like a lot of work, but it
worked well.

I preferred the part time 4wd though, because I used to off-road a
little, and at the time many full time systems with a differential in
the middle didn't have a lock. You could have your front wheels on dry
ground and your back wheels in mud, and your back wheels would spin
with the front not doing much.

Enjoy.
Ben
 
Richard said:
Not really taking a side here, just an anecdote. My old pickup with
part-time 4wd used to take technique to drive in the snow. Since there
was no differential in the transfer case, the front and rear wheels
were driven the same distance all the time. Any give between the two
came from wheel slippage. Thus, it was bad to use on dry pavement.
Also, on snow covered pavement, it was usually the front wheels that
would slide in a turn. Not a terrible out of control thing, it was
just that it really wanted to go straight instead of turning. It could
shift on the fly, so I got fairly adept at using 4wd to get up to
speed, and going back into rwd to make a corner, then getting back into
4wd. With a stickshift truck it looked like a lot of work, but it
worked well.

I preferred the part time 4wd though, because I used to off-road a
little, and at the time many full time systems with a differential in
the middle didn't have a lock. You could have your front wheels on dry
ground and your back wheels in mud, and your back wheels would spin
with the front not doing much.
Click to expand...

These are the types of systems I was referring to, though perhaps
they're not what Matt and Edwin have. In addition to what Ben said,
these systems also tend to increase stopping distance in slippery
conditions.

Let's also keep in mind that there are significant differences between
"real" 4WD pickup trucks and truck-based SUVs. I would expect that the
former would be good in snow, assuming they had enough weight in the
back and the more aggressive tires that are typical. OTOH, when you try
to "civilize" the platform for SUV use, you give up performance for comfort.
 
Edwin said:
There are so many combinations of pickups and FWD vehicles that is just not
possible to make a general statement that one is better than the other. .
Click to expand...

Yes, that is true to a large degree, however, some generalizations can
be made, particularly in slushy conditions. I've driven everything from
VW Beetles (the original ones!) to tractor-trailers. A heavier vehicle
is almost always better in slush than a lighter one. A tractor trailer
can drive through 4" of slush and not even know it is on the road from a
stability perspective. My pickup handles 2" with ease. My Beetles got
skittish in 1/2" of slush.


Matt
 
Brian said:
These are the types of systems I was referring to, though perhaps
they're not what Matt and Edwin have. In addition to what Ben said,
these systems also tend to increase stopping distance in slippery
conditions.
Click to expand...

I have a part-time shift-on-the-fly system in my K1500. It steers fine
in snow. The only time I notice the slippage front to rear is making a
full lock turn at slow speed. Anything above 20 MPH it simply isn't
even noticeable if the traction is poor enough to need to be in 4WD.

Why do you think they increase stopping distance? Mine stops the same
or even slightly shorter in 4WD. The reason is that the solid center
differential and locking rear axle act like a poor man's ABS. It makes
it hard to lock the wheels as you have to lock at least three of them.

Let's also keep in mind that there are significant differences between
"real" 4WD pickup trucks and truck-based SUVs. I would expect that the
former would be good in snow, assuming they had enough weight in the
back and the more aggressive tires that are typical. OTOH, when you try
to "civilize" the platform for SUV use, you give up performance for
comfort.
Click to expand...

True, but even with the lesser performance, you are still ahead of FWD cars.


Matt
 
Let's also keep in mind that there are significant differences between
"real" 4WD pickup trucks and truck-based SUVs. I would expect that the
former would be good in snow, assuming they had enough weight in the
back and the more aggressive tires that are typical. OTOH, when you try
to "civilize" the platform for SUV use, you give up performance for
Click to expand...
comfort.

A little more explanation would be helpful Brian. A Blazer for example,
uses the exact same type of power train as its "real" 4WD pickup relative
does. Now, some of the import "SUV's" may be a different story - never
really looked to see what they had for a power train.
 
Matt said:
I have a part-time shift-on-the-fly system in my K1500. It steers fine
in snow. The only time I notice the slippage front to rear is making a
full lock turn at slow speed. Anything above 20 MPH it simply isn't
even noticeable if the traction is poor enough to need to be in 4WD.

Why do you think they increase stopping distance?
Click to expand...

I've read studies that indicated that they increase stopping distance
and adversely affect handling compared to 2WD versions of the same vehicle.
 
I've read studies that indicated that they increase stopping distance
and adversely affect handling compared to 2WD versions of the same
Click to expand...
vehicle.

I would bet that is due to the added weight of the 4WD.
 
Yup used to do alot of snowmobileing in Happy Valley. Im originally from
Central Square, lived there for 23 years then moved down Rt 49 where 49
comes into Rt 3, now I have given up on all the poopy weather and now live
in Las Vegas, its nice not having to shovel all that white stuff but here we
have to deal with above 100* summer days Oh Well such is life in the big
city.

']['unez


Mike Marlow said:
']['unez said:
Mike, 300" of snow per year, Im assumeing you must live in the Redfield/ Tug
Hill area. I lived in the Fulton/Mexico area for more years than I care
to
remember and thats the only places that get that much snow EVERY FREAKIN
YEAR !!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

The edge of it. Hastings/Parish. I generalize about the area in posts
like
this because it does represent the typical driving conditions we encounter
during the winter. I probably receive somewhat less snow than Redfield in
any given storm, but we are not that far off seasonally. I spend alot of
time on the road within the Tug Hill area though. The entire Hill
averages
closer to 300" than 200" most years. The last few sure have not been that
heavy though. I know that we do get a lot more than Fulton gets in any
given snowfall. It's funny how it goes (as you probably know) - it's like
there is a wall where all of a sudden the snow starts and it's like you
entered another zone on the planet.
Click to expand...
 
Mike said:
comfort.

A little more explanation would be helpful Brian. A Blazer for example,
uses the exact same type of power train as its "real" 4WD pickup relative
does. Now, some of the import "SUV's" may be a different story - never
really looked to see what they had for a power train.
Click to expand...

Isn't the Blazer based on the S-10 pickup? That isn't a real pickup!
:-) That is a mini-pickup.


Matt
 
Brian said:
I've read studies that indicated that they increase stopping distance
and adversely affect handling compared to 2WD versions of the same vehicle.
Click to expand...

Can you point me to one? I've never seen such a study or suggestion
that this would be the case. It certainly doesn't correlate to my
exerience and I can't think of a technical reason why it would be the case.

Matt
 
Mike said:
vehicle.

I would bet that is due to the added weight of the 4WD.
Click to expand...

That is possible, however, extra weight generally also increases
traction and largely offsets the inertial factor.


Matt
 
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