Fram aftermarket Sonata Oil Filter - Failure!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bob
  • Start date Start date
southluke said:
The
best oil filter is the one on sale. I think I have used about every
brand made over the years and never had engine problems. The Walmart
brand seems to work fine.

However, I have noticed over the years that every now and then one
will leak a little. Not sure why but it does not seem to be any
particular brand.

Just change the oil and filter regularly and keep an eye on the oil
level and you will be OK.
Click to expand...

Do you go to the cheapest hospital and doctor when you are sick?

Matt
 
Wait til you get on Medicare and HAVE to go to the cheapest and least
experienced hospital/doctor because the good ones are no longer accepting
Medicare patients since our government is cutting the doctors' allowed
charges. Sad but true.
 
Tom said:
Wait til you get on Medicare and HAVE to go to the cheapest and least
experienced hospital/doctor because the good ones are no longer accepting
Medicare patients since our government is cutting the doctors' allowed
charges. Sad but true.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between having to go cheap and choosing to go
cheap. The discussion was about choosing cheap and then claiming it
didn't matter.

Matt
 
The perception that price = quality is no longer valid,,, unfortunately.
Everywhere you look, you see 'Made in China'. I was at the optometrist
yesterday and looked at $300 frames made in China with designer labels.
$300 would be a year's salary for many over there. Don't equate 'cheap'
cost with cheap quality. It no longer has any bearing.
 
I should also say that I have 40 years of engineering and product design
management experience in the packaging industry segment and I was constantly
under severe pressure to 'cheapen' the product to compete with off-shore
products. One one occasion I was told by the CEO of our $2.5 Billion
corporation to 'make the product JUST good enough to pass the tests."
Therefore, seeing 'Made in USA' on a Purolator filter, sadly, does not mean
it is better than one made elsewhere. I say 'sadly' because I hate buying
products made off-shore, but I do it to stretch my dollar. We all do it.
 
Tom said:
The perception that price = quality is no longer valid,,, unfortunately.
Everywhere you look, you see 'Made in China'. I was at the optometrist
yesterday and looked at $300 frames made in China with designer labels.
$300 would be a year's salary for many over there. Don't equate 'cheap'
cost with cheap quality. It no longer has any bearing.
Click to expand...

It certainly isn't the only metric, but it does hold for many, many
products. Every oil test I've seen shows correlation between quality
and price.

Matt
 
Tom said:
I should also say that I have 40 years of engineering and product design
management experience in the packaging industry segment and I was constantly
under severe pressure to 'cheapen' the product to compete with off-shore
products. One one occasion I was told by the CEO of our $2.5 Billion
corporation to 'make the product JUST good enough to pass the tests."
Therefore, seeing 'Made in USA' on a Purolator filter, sadly, does not mean
it is better than one made elsewhere. I say 'sadly' because I hate buying
products made off-shore, but I do it to stretch my dollar. We all do it.
Click to expand...

I have only 25 years of engineering and engineering management
experience [but in a $6B company - :-)], and I've never had any such
mandate. However, that really is the essence of engineering. The key
is what the specifications are against which the product is being
tested. I designed products and manufacturing equipment, not packaging,
but I can see a distinct difference between packaging and products for
longer-term use. If the packaging is good enough to protect the
contents while it is in transit, that is all that is needed. Making it
two times better adds no value. Products that will see a long service
live under widely varying conditions are a little bit different.

Matt
 
Our 275 gallon containers routinely last 5 years or more carrying hazardous
chemicals. It is scary when you relate that to what I said. I find it very
strange that you never were under cost constraints. You must have been
making the overpriced machinery that we bought. :o) Our company was still
'small' enough to not be insulated from upper management. We routinely
conversed and interacted with them. They actually knew what was going on at
the 'floor' level - a trait missing in too many of our companies being run
by MBA's and accountants.


Matt Whiting said:
Tom said:
I should also say that I have 40 years of engineering and product design
management experience in the packaging industry segment and I was
constantly under severe pressure to 'cheapen' the product to compete with
off-shore products. One one occasion I was told by the CEO of our $2.5
Billion corporation to 'make the product JUST good enough to pass the
tests." Therefore, seeing 'Made in USA' on a Purolator filter, sadly,
does not mean it is better than one made elsewhere. I say 'sadly'
because I hate buying products made off-shore, but I do it to stretch my
dollar. We all do it.
Click to expand...

I have only 25 years of engineering and engineering management experience
[but in a $6B company - :-)], and I've never had any such mandate.
However, that really is the essence of engineering. The key is what the
specifications are against which the product is being tested. I designed
products and manufacturing equipment, not packaging, but I can see a
distinct difference between packaging and products for longer-term use.
If the packaging is good enough to protect the contents while it is in
transit, that is all that is needed. Making it two times better adds no
value. Products that will see a long service live under widely varying
conditions are a little bit different.

Matt
Click to expand...
 
Deck said:
My fram for 06 sonata says "Made in Korea"
Click to expand...
That's interesting in that mine did not specify. I posted a bunch of
pictures of it in the ~ June timeframe just after they appeared in the
stores. The failed filter was installed around the end of August. I looked
at the O-ring again, and it is still compressed looking.
 
Didn't you just say that the country of origin was no indication of
quality? Or by "cheap", do you simply mean "least expensive".
 
Matt said:
']['unez said:
Well Brian, If this response was aimed at me ( actually it doesnt
matter who it was aimed at ) that is your opinion and you know what
they say about opinions !!!!! I have been using Fram Oil Filters in my
Vehicles and sold them in all 4 of my service stations for 40 YEARS
with not one complaint or not one problem in 40 years and just so you
have another of your opinions aired I also used Penzoil Oil all those
years untill Mobil 1 came out and I switched.... As you know or should
know EVERYBODY has parts fail, it doesnt matter if its Fram, Autolite,
WHOMEVER it does happen Just because you may have had a bad experiance
with a fram filter or read it someplace that doesnt mean you need to
condem them for every body else .
Click to expand...

Fram filters changed a lot over that time period. I used them in the
early days as well and they were very good then. When Fram was acquired
by a different company (forget the details now as it has been many years
ago), the filters were redesigned to cut cost. They went from being a
premium brand to being a bottom-tier brand almost overnight.

Use what you will, but the standard Fram filters today just aren't high
quality as several tear-downs have shown.

Matt
Click to expand...

Exactly. Moreover, when I checked the specs of the Fram filter for the
Elantra, the relief valve (bypass valve) pressure was well below
Hyundai's specifications. OTOH, Purolator filters ARE made to Hyundai's
factory specs. I imagine other reputable filters are also made to the
correct specs, but obviously, Fram doesn't care enough to do so, which
is more than good enough reason for me to avoid them like the plague.

Additionally, any company that sells "snake oil" such as filters that
contain Teflon (long ago disproved as a useful oil additive) and
nonsense like special filters for use with synthetic oils is highly
suspect. This silliness is all about marketing and increasing profits by
deceiving the public, not about protecting engines.
 
GUEST wrote
Several Months ago, there was some discussion about aftermarket oi filters
for the Sonata. I had purchased a Fram PH9999. I took severa pictures of
it - the filter, O rings, and took similar pictures of the genuin Hyundai
filter. Matt Whiting had the following to say: "The picture are very nice.
In the pictures, it appears that both the filter media and th inner o-rings
(I think they are o-rings anyway) are a different color from th Hyundai
filter. This may be inconsequential or it may mean that thes materials are
materially (pun intended!) different from the Hyundai filter. I' want to
know if this was my engine.

Well, Matt hit the nail on the head. Around the end of August, did an oil
change, and installed the Fram filter in my 2006 Sonata. All wa well until
I noticed the oil stain on my driveway yesterday. (My wife drive the car).
This morning, I looked under the hood, and found oil had bee leaking from
between the cap and the filter housing. I tried to give it a turn and found
it tight. I started the engine, and the entire filter housing wa almost
immediately covered in oil. I took the filter cap off, hoping tha it wasn't
cracked

It wasn't. The O ring for the cap was flat. It actually ha hardened. I've
changed the oil in the car like 6 times now, and the Hyundai O rin was
still round and soft (flexible) when replaced. The Fram O rin actually is
now flat on the outside, and was really hard. I have pictures o the Hyundai
O ring I replaced it with up against the Fram O ring I removed. M server is
currently dead, so I anyone's got either a way to host them, o suggestions
as to how I can link to them, let me know (my email address i valid), and
I'll either email them to you, or follow whatever instructions s everyone
can see

I think a contributing factor was the cold weather we had the pas few
days - pretty close to 30. I would have noticed the oil on th driveway, and
the way the oil flowed out, it would have made a really big puddle and ran
the oil level down in the car. I suspect that as soon as the oi warms, it
quits leaking

I figure there's no point in trying to contact Fram about this - can
picture how their customer service would react
Click to expand...
denial

Wow! We have covered several areas. I have a BSEE
MBA and Masters in Systems Engineering degrees. Have over 30 year
experience in product design and now work for a major airplan
manufacturing company (many billions) as an Avionics Engineer.

To evaluate an oil filter, one would need to know the specification
of the product including the tolorances of the parts, the materia
trace, the characteristics of the paper used in the filter, th
quality control system, etc. We do not have access to that kind o
info so just have to go by hearsay and experience

I have found a couple of websites that have evaluated oil filters bu
just take those inputs with a grain of salt. Also, I wonder abou
the value of the filter with the high detergent oils we have today

Medical question: I have an HMO and have had a couple of majo
surguries over the years. One should be educated and well informe
before listening to any doctor. I investigate the ones I use ver
thoroughly before using them. Money is not the determining facto
but past results are indicative of their quality.

When judging the quality of almost anything we purchase or use toda
we are limited by time to do research and lack of availabl
information

According to my training, a product should meet the liste
requirements but not be overdesigned to the point of waste. I'm sur
this is the attitude of Hyundai
 
That filter may well be a genuine Hyundai filter repackaged by Fram.
I'd DIE before I put that cheap Korean crap on my Hyundai.
Click to expand...
You've joking, right? Your car is "Made in Korea". Even if it's assembled
in the US, most of the parts are made in Korea.
 
I was using the comments of 'others' to show them that, if they were correct
in their proposition that country of origin makes them cheaper, then you
can't get any 'cheaper' than India. That was a revered Purolator filter
that was made in India, not a Fram. ALL companies under pricing pressure
are reverting to the lowest cost producer and making things 'just good
enough' to do the job. Fact of life.
 
Very well put, southluke.


southluke said:
denial.

Wow! We have covered several areas. I have a BSEE,
MBA and Masters in Systems Engineering degrees. Have over 30 years
experience in product design and now work for a major airplane
manufacturing company (many billions) as an Avionics Engineer.

To evaluate an oil filter, one would need to know the specifications
of the product including the tolorances of the parts, the material
trace, the characteristics of the paper used in the filter, the
quality control system, etc. We do not have access to that kind of
info so just have to go by hearsay and experience.

I have found a couple of websites that have evaluated oil filters but
just take those inputs with a grain of salt. Also, I wonder about
the value of the filter with the high detergent oils we have today.

Medical question: I have an HMO and have had a couple of major
surguries over the years. One should be educated and well informed
before listening to any doctor. I investigate the ones I use very
thoroughly before using them. Money is not the determining factor
but past results are indicative of their quality.

When judging the quality of almost anything we purchase or use today
we are limited by time to do research and lack of available
information.

According to my training, a product should meet the listed
requirements but not be overdesigned to the point of waste. I'm sure
this is the attitude of Hyundai.
Click to expand...
 
Tom said:
Our 275 gallon containers routinely last 5 years or more carrying hazardous
chemicals. It is scary when you relate that to what I said. I find it very
strange that you never were under cost constraints. You must have been
making the overpriced machinery that we bought. :o) Our company was still
'small' enough to not be insulated from upper management. We routinely
conversed and interacted with them. They actually knew what was going on at
the 'floor' level - a trait missing in too many of our companies being run
by MBA's and accountants.
Click to expand...

I never said I wasn't under cost constraints. I said that I'd never had
a mandate from the CEO to to "make the product JUST good enough to pass
the tests."

I'm not insulated from upper management. I had the CEO, the President
and COO and the CTO in my lab just a few months ago and they are
visiting my project again next week...

Matt
 
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