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pdp11
34. Sorry, not wet by any stretch.
It's a relative measurement. From where I sit, 34 is still pretty wet
behind the ears. (I've been driving my car since nearly before you
were born!)
Again, for YOU. Everything that affect us all does, indirectly,
affects you. Maybe you don't see it that way. What's so wrong with
wanting make things better for everyone?
Because not everyone agrees on what is "better for everyone," for
starters.
correct, that spans 12 years. So, again, not more expensive in the
last 40 years? That's false.
In 1967 (I was there), a gallon of regular gasoline typically cost
about 30 cents. A candy bar, as one example, cost a nickel. Today a
gallon of gasoline costs about $3.00 and a candy bar costs at least 50
cents if not more. The inflation rate for various items is different,
of course, but most commodity/staple items have experienced about a
tenfold increase.
less competition in the market. That could also be a large component
of their high prices.
A vary large component of high European fuel prices is taxation.
I don't advocate for more government control over anyone's lives. It
would be great if that one thing, a loophole, be closed and a document
You are looking at it as a "loophole." I am looking at it saying that
the federal government should not have the authority to set these
standards in the first place. The U.S. is supposed to have a limited
central government with specific, enumerated powers. The "interstate
commerce" clause of the Constitution was intended to prevent the trade
wars and tariffs between the States that were such a problem under the
Articles of Confederation, not to give the federal government carte
blanch to micro-manage products and services. (Though of course
additional authority may be granted via the amendment process.)
A government powerful enough to dictate how much fuel your vehicle can
use, how much water your toilet can use, etc., is not one that is
conducive to personal liberty. Fuel economy should be dictated by the
market. (As fuel prices rise, people will naturally purchase smaller
vehicles.)
judgment. No one is I am not forcing anyone to do anything. You're
twisting my words and trying to put words in my mouth. I am pointing
No, I am not. In general you seem to want to correct the "problems"
that you see via government intervention. By definition, every
government action is an action of force and coercion.
It's disappointing if you think so. Do you happen to hear what your
buddy Lee Iacocca said recently on NPR (National Public Radio)?
I don't listen to NPR.
By the way, who are you to not care about what goes on in the country
in which you live?
What I care about is the continual growth of government power at the
expense of individual liberty that we have experienced under both
major political parties for decades.
There is fact and evidence to support that oil will not be in the
supply you claim it will be given the current worlds rate of
consumption. The error is your lack of extending and translating it to
the global world consumption. You do know that China is going to
surpass our consumption very shortly and India will be runner up?
There are plenty of oil resources in and around North America. The tar
sands of Alberta alone would be enough to fuel the entire world for
the next century. There is no need to sell North American oil to China
or India.
As I said, I've been hearing that we'll run out of oil in 20-30 years
for about 50 years now.
else is doing. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't care
about anyone else other than yourself but I would remind you that
you're not the only one living on the planet.
Now it is you who are twisting my words. I said no such thing. I
simply disagree with you on what problems we may be facing and how to
go about addressing them.
The case of for year goes like this: I don't believe car makers make
more profit off of small cars. There is no specific demographic for
small cars. Car makers have their fingers on the pulse of the salary
You still have not made a case for why the year is of any relevance.
Car makers produce the cars they believe the public will purchase. If
they do not do so they go out of business. This is the case regardless
of what the year is.
I'm quite shocked that you feel safety features, things that protect
people and children, from injury are not needed. You do know that by
having them (air-bags, anti-lock brakes) they reduce insurance rates,
right? That's a bad thing? I don't get it. You might not care about
your own safety, but the soccer mom who takes the team to practice
Once again, you are twisting my words and making assumptions. I
question the effectivness of these gadgets, as well as possible
undesirable side effects. Air bags in particular are not necessary for
people wearing seat belts, they are supplemental systems that were
developed in the first place because a lot of idiots would not wear
their belts. (Every policeman that I have talked to has a saying, that
they have "never unbelted a corpse.")
For examples of cars that are extremely safe and protect their
occupants in horrific accidents sans airbags, check out pre-airbag
Saabs and Volvos.
does. It's irresponsible to think they are unnecessary. I don't agree
with you at all. I know the statistics don't agree with you either.
But hey, it's you personal choice.
It is ridiculous to think they are necessary. As far as statistics, as
the saying goes, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. (The
stats for air bags are cooked, as it is assumed that every time an air
bag goes off that someone's life is saved. On the other hand, I
personally know someone who was blinded by an airbag that went off in
a low-speed parking lot fender-bender.)
Neither anti-lock brakes nor stability control are needed by a driver
who actually knows how to handle their vehicle. (Having spent many
years in software development, including embedded microprocessor
systems, the idea of a computer taking over from and making judgements
for the driver is not something I believe is a particularly good
thing.)
Haven't heard of any customer revolts to have them removed though. I
There are "dummy" inserts available to replace steering-wheel airbags
for people who either don't want to replace them after they have gone
off, or want to remove them. So there is at least some market for
disabling them.
partially agree with you there. ABS and air-bags are fairly recent
technologies so I'm not sure the stats on their efficacy. I am for the
True, they were not developed until the 1970s.
I, myself, have never been in an accident in my 19 years of driving.
Well, you're still a relative beginner, give it time.

Well, how am I forcing anyone to do anything? Can you substantiate
that assertion? I never said anyone has to do anything. I seem to get
You call for the expansion of government-mandated fuel economy
standards, for one.
the impression that you'd much rather we go back to the carburetor
days and that the cars of today are too complex to work on by the
average person.
You forget, in my own case I have never left the carburetor days.
Nowhere did I state that you or anyone else should do the same.
made some points but no facts to back them up. I'm giving you facts
but you're overtly choosing to discount them based on personal
opinion.
I have seen few "facts" from you, just opinons. (An opinion is not a
"fact" just because it's stated by someone else on a web page.)
When I read statement like this, to me, it reads like "Don't tell me I
can't waste, I'll waste as god damn much as I want to waste. This is
America! We can waste if we want to!" This originally had to do with
Once again, you are putting yourself in the position of dictating what
is and is not waste. Some might say that Al Gore and John Kerry are
wasting huge amounts of energy in living their fabulously wealthy
lifestyles. (I, on the other hand, have no problem with them or anyone
else enjoying their wealth.)
As I have said, why don't you calculate the amount of energy used and
waste produced in the manufacture of a new car. (Be sure to include
the mining and refining of the raw materials.) After looking this up,
come back and tell me again how much I'm "wasting" by driving the same
"inefficient" car for 30 years or more versus the more conventional
approach of purchasing or leasing a new vehicle every few years.
Electric cars were around since the early 20th century and you had to
crank them. Internal combustion changed it. Internal combustion has
Electric cars to my knowledge never had to be cranked. Early gasoline
cars had to be cranked, prior to the invention of the Kettering
electric starter. The early electrics suffered from limited range and
battery life.
That's like saying leaded fuel is better than unleaded fuel with
respect to this debate.
Not at all. You are comparing the proverbial apples and oranges.
have today? Layoffs and CEO with fat exit packages. Worked out really
well for the country no? At least Hyundai brought the 10-year 100k
mile warranty. It's taken Detroit HOW LONG to get even close to that?
Don't forget that part of Detroit's problems stem from legacy expenses
engendered by their union contracts.
There have been periods of time when the domestic auto industry tried
at least in part to push safety and economy. Since you are not wet
behind the ears or anything, I'm sure you remember when Ford made a
big safety push for the 1956 model year and saw their sales plummet.
Likewise I'm sure you must remember when under George Romney, Nash/AMC
(which specialized in small cars) waged a very public media war
against "gas guzzling dinosaurs" and "trundling tanks." Also, caught
between domestic compacts and rising import sales, as I am certain you
will remember, there was a flurry of compact car development in the
1959-1960 timeframe by the Big 3. (That's without even getting into
the real small fry like Crosley and King Midget, which I am certain
you must recall as well.) Public response was enough to keep
relatively small companies going for a while, but consumers for the
most part preferred larger vehicles, and were not concerned with
safety. The Big 3 compacts within a few years became "longer, lower, &
wider."
The long Hyundai warranty is nice, but the real reason for it is that
the companyi had a reputation for poor-quality products and needed a
way to instill consumer confidence. (Even today despite all the
improvements there are many people who still equate Hyundai with junk.
It takes a long time to outgrow that kind of reputation.) However,
Hyundai is fairly infamous for looking for excuses to disallow
coverage on the 100,000 mile warranty, and the items covered are
fairly limited. They are not really a consumer-oriented company, but
then again none of the auto companies are. (As you may recall, once
again not being wet behind the ears or anything, one of the few
attempts at an auto company being truly consumer-oriented was when AMC
introduced their "Buyer Protection Plan" in the early 1970s. It was
considered revolutionary at the time.)
As a Democracy, the people decide what's best, suggest it to their
The U.S. is not a "Democracy," it is a Constitutional Republic. A
Democracy is little more than mob rule, essentially two wolves and a
sheep voting on what to have for lunch. In a Constitutional Republic
the government is supposed to be limited to specific enumerated powers
no matter what the voters decide. (It imposes limits on the "will of
the people," or at least is supposed to. The U.S. government has
largely escaped these limitations due to a variety of factors.)
what the companies do, neither can the government. I mean, take the
whole Enron thing. The employees got hosed and the exec made out like
bandits. Ken Lay died before he could be convicted, Skilling got
And with government, the people get hosed and the politicians make out
like bandits. While the Enron execs were corrupt, they learned from
the best. (Government thugs, with a monopoly on the legitimized usage
of force on their side, have the potential to do much more harm than
any private-sector thugs.)
(i.e., pensions). So, by your rationale and perspective, that the Fed
created legislation and laws that keep that kind of things from
happening would be bad, correct?
If the Constitution does not authorize it, yes, I would be opposed to
it. (Prosecuting fraud is generally a state matter.) I do not buy the
"ends justify the means" argument. That is a very slippery slope and
the battle cry of every tyrant to come down the pike. If a specific
new federal power is truly needed, that is what the amendment process
is for.
If people want a change, the people are obligated to make a case for
it and argue for the change to their contemporaries and fellow people.
If people want the federal government to take on authority outside
those powers explicitly authorized by the Constitution, they are
obligated to to make a case for an amendment rather than looking for
ways to do an end run around the restrictions. (Note that this has
been done in the past for things as stupid as alcohol prohibition. But
at least people at that time still realized an amendment to the
Constitution was needed to give the federal government that kind of
authority. Contrast that to today's drug prohibition laws.)
The facts seem to point to the White House being the pockets of big
business and corporate interests. I do agree with that fact. There is
Old news. This has been the case with pretty much every president, and
every politician. Follow the money trail.