Hyundai preformance on icy raods

[Matt Whiting]

I too haven't run snows in a while, but be real, all seasons really aren't
good in snow-we've all just like the ease of them.

I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for
99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about
5 months worth here in PA.

They aren't the best possible tire in snow, but then I don't need the
best possible tire. I need a tire good enough for my conditions and
that is what my all-season tires are: good enough for my needs.

Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every
NEEDS it. Same with snow tires.

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

"> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an extra
set
I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother used to
say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank full as it does
empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel wheels, it doesn't cost
any more to employ them. Miles put on snows are miles not put on regular
tires....BTW how many of us use summer tires as opposed to all season
radials, and is anyone troiubled by that performance compromise (wet
weather, braking and handling). There, I'm done beating the dead
horse<grin>.....I guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP
faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle
observation was a good one though)

Well, your mother was wrong. It DOES cost more to haul around a full
tank of gas! And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much
faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow
tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.

No, I'm not bothered by the summer compromises of all-season tires as,
again, I don't need the performance of a performance summer tire. The
only difference I saw between the tires that came on my Sonata and the
tires I have now is that the performance tires wore out in 30K miles
rather than the 50-60K I typically achieve with all-season tires. That
is the performance of most interest to me.

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

Jus in case the horse is not dead.- - - - -

The Sonata 5 speed auto can be manually shifted into 2nd gear for starts on
slippery roads.

What, your traction control failed?

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

Studded tires have been banned in some states due to the damage they do to
roads. I know Michigan banned them. In any case I never got them and never
really needed them there.

All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter what
tire is on it" is simply false.

Matt

 

[Mike Marlow]

I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
good in snow. Not as good as snow tires, no doubt, but good enough for
99.9% of the snow I encounter in a typical winter and I encounter about 5
months worth here in PA.

That's my point, so I'm happy to echo your words Matt. Here in Central NY,
I've just never encountered the time when I "needed" snow tires. My driving
habits are not impared by a good ASR, and I haven't suffered incoveniences
that would have been avoided with snows. I tend to drive as fast and as
aggressively as conditions permit, and I just expect that winter conditions
can and often do, dictate that those two terms don't mean the same thing
they do in the summer time. Snows would not change that. It's not all
about being able to take off. It's also about being able to stop, avoid,
etc. The marginal benefit that snows would offer in the full spectrum of
winter driving are just lost on me. If I haven't encountered needs for them
in the 30+ years since I last purchased a snow tire, why would I want to put
them on now? They wouldn't change my winter time driving habits, so any
marginal benefit would just be lost. Without a doubt - I fully agree with
your dissention to the previous comment that ASR's are insufficient for
winter use. Touring tires are (IMHO), but there are a lot of very good ASR
tread patterns that are perfectly acceptable for winter use.

Saying you need snow tires is like saying you need all-wheel drive.
All-wheel drive is better than FWD, but that doesn't mean that every NEEDS
it. Same with snow tires.

Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that since 4WD
will take off better in snow, move through snow better with 7 1/2 feet of
steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight of that snow ahead
of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be better in snow. There are
downsides to the confidence that falsely creeps into people's minds when
there are niche benefits to things.

 

[DonC]

"> Depends where you live. In mid-Michigan (Lansing area), keeping an
extra set
I know what your saying, but it brings to mind something my mother used to
say about cars..."It doesn't cost anymore to keep the tank full as it does
empty" Once you've bought the snows and cheap steel wheels, it doesn't
cost any more to employ them. Miles put on snows are miles not put on
regular tires....BTW how many of us use summer tires as opposed to all
season radials, and is anyone troiubled by that performance compromise
(wet weather, braking and handling). There, I'm done beating the dead
horse<grin>.....I guess the group does largely agree on one thing- The OP
faulting Hyundai is mostly without merit.(I think the touchy throttle
observation was a good one though)

Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full"
garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow
tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store less
than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably
unnecessary junk I've got there : )

I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm
discussing

 

[jp103]

Okay, so let's say I have a sedan with nice looking mags and a "too full"
garage. Should I buy 4 less than beautiful steel wheels to mount 4 snow
tires when their benefit to me is trivial? I don't have space to store less
than necessary stuff in my garage --- along with the other probably
unnecessary junk I've got there : )

I think that's the mindset of people who live in the climate area I'm
discussing

If I had a nice set of wheels I would probably buy a set of snows w/
steel wheels for several reasons.
1) I do not drive aggressively enough to worry about the difference in
handling.
2) Here in SE Michigan we have these thing that crop up every winter
called potholes. Hit a large one at speed with your nice wheel and tire
and you could be out almost the cost of a set of winter tires/wheels.
3) The gain in snow driveability that you will gain from a narrower tire
say going from a 255/50/17 to a 225/75/16 (example only) with a winter
specific tread is undeniable. Yes you can drive all winter with all
season tires but if I had the money and drove a lot of miles I defy
anyone, that has had experience with both, to honestly say that on a
snow and/or ice covered road that they will opt for all season over
winter tires .
4) Keeping my nice wheels free of road salt and extending the life of my
"good" tires by five to ten months are also added benefits.

Only you can decide if the benefits are trivial or not. Where you live,
how much snow, what your nice mags and wheels cost, what the road
conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all
considerations that only you can factor in.

 

[DonC]

If I had a nice set of wheels I would probably buy a set of snows w/ steel
wheels for several reasons.
1) I do not drive aggressively enough to worry about the difference in
handling.
2) Here in SE Michigan we have these thing that crop up every winter
called potholes. Hit a large one at speed with your nice wheel and tire
and you could be out almost the cost of a set of winter tires/wheels.
3) The gain in snow driveability that you will gain from a narrower tire
say going from a 255/50/17 to a 225/75/16 (example only) with a winter
specific tread is undeniable. Yes you can drive all winter with all
season tires but if I had the money and drove a lot of miles I defy
anyone, that has had experience with both, to honestly say that on a snow
and/or ice covered road that they will opt for all season over winter
tires .
4) Keeping my nice wheels free of road salt and extending the life of my
"good" tires by five to ten months are also added benefits.

Only you can decide if the benefits are trivial or not. Where you live,
how much snow, what your nice mags and wheels cost, what the road
conditions are and whether you have space to store an extra set are all
considerations that only you can factor in.

And keep in mind that SE Michigan has noticeably less snow than
mid-Michigan. I drove over 45 years on mid-Michigan roads and could never
justify snow tires. And a good part of those years was before
front-while-drive and radial tires were commonplace.

Of course, now that I live in sunny southern Arizona I don't have to even
consider them : )

 

[Old_Timer]

Our XG350 is horrible on icy roads. We have experienced this twice now,
once while on vacation where the condo was on a hill that got iced up, and
now again while on vacation when we went through an ice storm. The vehicle
has never behaved badly on snowy roads, or slushy roads, just ice. The
vehicle has brand new Briggstone Turansa tires that I've used on other
vehicles and they have been great on ice. I know there is a lot of weight
on the front wheels (due to the tires always looking like they need air) so
I would expect that the car would be good on ice, but no. Anybody out there
have similar experience with Hyundai and ice? Any ideas what to do about
it? I run my tires high (35-40 psi), would lowering that help?

BTW I'm in Minnesota, so I know how to drive on snow and ice.

Thanks

Dan

All these messages about driving the Hyundai on ice and snow brought
to mind an entry in the Owner's manual for my 200- Sonata GLS v6.

It clearly states "Tire chains should not be used on P205/60/ R15
tires. With these tires there is not sufficient clearance for chains
installation between the tires and other vehicle components and damage
may result"

Old_Timer

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

What, your traction control failed?

Matt

The TC works very well. When I pull out of my driveway I make a left up a
hill A few mornings in snow the TC did a very good job but it seems even
better in 2nd.

I've also been able to pass other cars on a hill with the help of TC while
the others were spinning. And that is with 30K on the original tires.
Overall, I'm pleased with the snow performance of the car.

Oh, no, I'm not considering snows. Like you and Mike point out, too much of
a compromise for the rest of my driving.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

And it does cost more to use snow tires. They wear much
faster than an all-season or summer tire so every mile put on a snow
tire is more costly than a mile put on an all-season or summer tire.

That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years,
you have nothing to base that conclusion on. Winter tire design and
rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they
use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite
durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for. They're
often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance" compounds. My
winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer tires and they
typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the extra set of
wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I used on four cars
between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on
dry pavement, there is no significant downside to winter tires. There
ARE significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty
winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby
pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we
should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and vice
versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making
the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they might not do it
otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see
some cost saving from it.

Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
three things:

- I don't want to

- I don't care

- I'm too cheap

 

[Brian Nystrom]

I have to disagree with you here. I find modern all-season tires very
good in snow.

You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are
dramatic differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as
"all season". As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've
had to use many of them in snow and most of the performance of the tires
on them have range from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright
dangerous". NONE of them have been what I would call good performers in
snow, compared to my winter tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars
have had relatively low mileage on them, so the tires with in good
shape. Whether you believe it or not, the difference IS quite substantial.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

It's not all
about being able to take off. It's also about being able to stop, avoid,
etc.

That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those
categories in bad conditions.

No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.

What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles
well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are
at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a
definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of
some higher-end AWD systems in cars.

Which leaves unturned, that huge stone that attempts to argue that since 4WD
will take off better in snow, move through snow better with 7 1/2 feet of
steel sticking off the nose, and in fact push the weight of that snow ahead
of that 7 1/2 feet of steel, that 4WD must be better in snow. There are
downsides to the confidence that falsely creeps into people's minds when
there are niche benefits to things.

Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse -
than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it.
It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in
bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

No, most of the people in the snow belt are like me and simply don't
need snow tires. I did a quick search and was not able to find any
detailed figures on USA tire sales by type, but I'll bet my 2% figure
isn't far off as the fraction of total tire sales annually that are
winter tires.

Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying
trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that
buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily
argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I
could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would
be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires
instead of an SUV.

 

[Brian Nystrom]

All true, but the fact remains that the statement about "no matter what
tire is on it" is simply false.

That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements
you've made in this thread.

 

[DonC]

Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who live
in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of three
things:

- I don't want to

- I don't care

- I'm too cheap

Add "I don't need them to drive safely"

It doesn't "really boil down to ..." your biases.

If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before
front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem, none
of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to"
would be a better addition to your list.

 

[Mike Marlow]

You can't simply make a blanket statement like that, as there are dramatic
differences in performance among the myriad tires labeled as "all season".
As I said before, I drive a lot of rental cars and I've had to use many of
them in snow and most of the performance of the tires on them have range
from "reasonably acceptible" to "downright dangerous". NONE of them have
been what I would call good performers in snow, compared to my winter
tires. Keep in mind that all of these cars have had relatively low mileage
on them, so the tires with in good shape. Whether you believe it or not,
the difference IS quite substantial.

I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out
there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice
soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry
interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as
useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding
perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.

 

[Matt Whiting]

That's simply not true and since you haven't used any in over 30 years,
you have nothing to base that conclusion on.

It simply is true:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...rmance-tires-11-06/overview/1106_tires_ov.htm

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/snow-tires/review.html

Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.

I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I
do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than
all-season tires.


Winter tire design and

rubber formulations have changed considerably. While it's true that they
use softer tread compounds than some "all season tires", they're quite
durable in the colder winter temperatures they're designed for. They're
often MORE durable that typical soft summer "performance" compounds. My
winter tires last at least as many seasons as my summer tires and they
typically cost less. Once you amortize the cost of the extra set of
wheels, it's all gravy (I had one set of wheels that I used on four cars
between '84 and '04). Unless one drives aggressively year-round when on
dry pavement, there is no significant downside to winter tires. There
ARE significant safety and performance advantages to them in nasty
winter conditions. There isn't any inconvenience, either. As Darby
pointed out, instead of rotating your tires twice per year (which we
should be doing anyway), you just swap from summers to winters and vice
versa - rotating them whenever they're reinstalled, of course. If making
the switch forces people to rotate their tires when they might not do it
otherwise, their summer tires will last longer and they'll actually see
some cost saving from it.

I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires as
they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life. However,
they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even
one credible reference that suggests otherwise.

Frankly, most of the arguments against winter tires - for people who
live in climates where they're justified - really boil down to one of
three things:

- I don't want to

- I don't care

- I'm too cheap

No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.

A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

Add "I don't need them to drive safely"

It doesn't "really boil down to ..." your biases.

If I've driven in northern snow for almost 50 years -- many before
front-wheel drive or radial tires -- without any significant problem, none
of things you boiled this down to do not apply. Maybe "I don't need to"
would be a better addition to your list.

Brian,

How does if feel to be right when the rest of the world is wrong? It
seems like the sentiment is nearly 100% opposite to your opinion.

Matt

 

[Matt Whiting]

That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those
categories in bad conditions.


No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.

The truth is, very few people NEED snow tires, they just think they do.
The benefits of AWD exceed the benefits of snow tires as many tests
have shown.

What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles
well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are
at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a
definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of
some higher-end AWD systems in cars.

My truck in 4WD handles much better than my FWD cars.

Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse -
than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it.
It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in
bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs.

Can you produce a reference to any tests that show that snow tires on a
2WD car increases performance in snow more than AWD on that same car?

Matt