M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:
I drive a lot of rental cars also (10 a year at least) and find no
problem in snow. I was in Fargo, ND just last week. Not a lot of snow,
but the -34F with -50F wind chill was interesting.
Matt
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I drive a lot of rental cars also (10 a year at least) and find no
problem in snow. I was in Fargo, ND just last week. Not a lot of snow,
but the -34F with -50F wind chill was interesting.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Mike said:I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out
there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice
soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry
interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as
useless as slicks in the snow. That said - I've had no trouble finding
perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.
And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:Sales statistics are no indicator of need or efficacy, simply of buying
trends. A good example of that is the large percentage of people that
buy SUVs vs. how many actually have a real need for one. I could easily
argue that less than 2% of drivers have any real need for an SUV. I
could also reasonably argue that many - if not most - SUV buyers would
be better off in many ways if they bought a car and a set of snow tires
instead of an SUV.
Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or
efficiency or tread life.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:That's true, but it's a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
considering some of the blatantly false and/or misleading statements
you've made in this thread.
I have not made a single false or misleading statement.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:That's exactly my point. Snow tires improve performance in ALL of those
categories in bad conditions.
No, it's not like that at all. The truth is that very few people
actually NEED 4WD or AWD, they just THINK they do. They perceive
benefits that simply aren't there and ignore the downsides.
What people actually need is better traction in a vehicle that handles
well. FWD and AWD are not a guarantee of the former, since the tires are
at least as large of a factor as the drive system, and they're a
definite disadvantage when it come to handling, except in the case of
some higher-end AWD systems in cars.
Absolutely! It's what convinces people to spend thousands of extra
dollars on vehicles that are no better in the snow - and often worse -
than a FWD car with a few hundred dollars worth of snow tires on it.
It's also what makes them feel invincible enough to drive like idiots in
bad conditions and ultimately end up off the road on their roofs.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...iving-405-winter-driving-safety-winter-tires/
D
DaToteman
I just want to stick my two cents in. I am picky about my tires and drive
about 25000 miles per year which is mostly drive back and forth to work in
all kinds of lousy weather. Snow, Rain, Ice etc. and have found that
Performance All Seasons are the way to go. They perform much better in the
wet and as far as I can tell in the snow. The original tires that come on
most new cars are junk, IE Michelin MXV4 - plane like no ones business. I
currently have Michelin Exalta A/Ss which I am quite happy with. BTW the BF
Goodrich Traction TA are not bad either. Check out the user reviews on
various type of tires at www.tirerack.com
For the Record my previous car was a 92 Accord and went thru many sets /
brands of tires and was never completely happy. My Tib feels much more
stable in lousy conditions than the accord ever did.
ME
about 25000 miles per year which is mostly drive back and forth to work in
all kinds of lousy weather. Snow, Rain, Ice etc. and have found that
Performance All Seasons are the way to go. They perform much better in the
wet and as far as I can tell in the snow. The original tires that come on
most new cars are junk, IE Michelin MXV4 - plane like no ones business. I
currently have Michelin Exalta A/Ss which I am quite happy with. BTW the BF
Goodrich Traction TA are not bad either. Check out the user reviews on
various type of tires at www.tirerack.com
For the Record my previous car was a 92 Accord and went thru many sets /
brands of tires and was never completely happy. My Tib feels much more
stable in lousy conditions than the accord ever did.
ME
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:
Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first paragraph
from the second one:
"Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those
features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire
Rack say only snow tires will actually improve grip on snow and ice.
Although all-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive is an advantage, you'll
still improve safety by swapping your summer or all-season tires for
winter ones. This is because snow tires have special tread designs that
help them bite into the snow. Snow tires also use a softer rubber
compound, so they stay flexible at lower temperatures."
That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions.
Winter tires lack the tread wear rating for a reason.
They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for
year-round use.
I also said I haven't used snow tires on my CARS in over 30 years, but I
do use them on my snow plow truck and they wear MUCH faster than
all-season tires.
On your truck I can believe it, but on cars it's not true, at least not
in the absolute terms you proclaim. I can give you a perfect example,
the tires on my Elantra. The car is an '04 and I've driven both sets of
tires for four seasons (the winter season isn't over yet, but it's close
enough). My summer tires - the stock Michelins that came on the car -
are completely worn out and must be replaced. Actually, they really
should have been replaced before last season, but they just passed
inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still have 2/3 of their
original depth. They will last at least another season and perhaps two.
Winter tire design and
I have no doubt that snow tires will outlast performance summer tires as
they have VERY soft compounds and absolutely lousy tread life. However,
they will not outwear a good all-season tire, not even close. Post even
one credible reference that suggests otherwise.
Obviously, you're wrong, as the results on my car prove. I don't need a
reference, I have the tires to prove it. If it makes you happy, I'll
send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to
support your bias against winter tires.
No, they boil down to "I don't need them." It is as simple as that.
A question for you, do you drive only all-wheel drive vehicles?
Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another post.
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:Brian,
How does if feel to be right when the rest of the world is wrong? It
seems like the sentiment is nearly 100% opposite to your opinion.
So is that what you're argument is reduced to now? I'm not a lemming,
therefore I must be wrong?
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:
You didn't read this one either, did you? It supports my assertions much
more than yours.
B
Brian Nystrom
Mike said:I do agree that there are a ton of what I consider to be pure junk ASR's out
there. Mainly in the touring tire category. It's not hard to find a nice
soft, quiet tire that is junk in any condition other than cruising down dry
interstates. They hydroplane badly, they corner badly, and they are as
useless as slicks in the snow.
That's exactly what my experience has been.
That said - I've had no trouble finding
perfectly acceptable ASR's that serve me well year round.
I certainly wish the cars I've been forced to drive had something like
that on them. I have yet to find ANY ASR that comes close to the
performance of winter tires in snow. I have to wonder if you might think
differently if you had the chance to do back-to-back comparisons on the
same car(s), as I have? That always seems to be the stumbling block with
most people. As I've said before, the people I've convinced to try
winter tires have ALL been stunned at the difference. Essentially, they
didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire
companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth.
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:And fleet rental cars don't exactly come with top'o the line tires.
That's certainly true, but they typically come with the same tires that
the same vehicle is equipped with for consumer purchases. The few that
I've actually looked at - generally because I was trying to figure out
what was wrong with them - have all been major brand tires and popular
models.
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:Neither is your opinion about snow tires any indicator of need or
efficiency or tread life.
If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences
to back it up.
B
Brian Nystrom
Matt said:I have not made a single false or misleading statement.
If you believe that, you're kidding yourself. Go back and read the
nonsense you've written.
B
Brian Nystrom
DaToteman said:I just want to stick my two cents in. I am picky about my tires and drive
about 25000 miles per year which is mostly drive back and forth to work in
all kinds of lousy weather. Snow, Rain, Ice etc. and have found that
Performance All Seasons are the way to go. They perform much better in the
wet and as far as I can tell in the snow. The original tires that come on
most new cars are junk, IE Michelin MXV4 - plane like no ones business. I
currently have Michelin Exalta A/Ss which I am quite happy with. BTW the BF
Goodrich Traction TA are not bad either. Check out the user reviews on
various type of tires at www.tirerack.com
FWIW, I'm perfectly happy with ASRs as three season tires, which is
really what they are. If I was driving as aggressively as I once did,
I'd want something stickier, but these days I'd rather not sacrifice wet
weather safety for dry weather performance.
E
Eric G.
Reading through this entire thread of testosterone has at least tought me
one lesson: Brian, you are not comprehending what people are saying here.
NO ONE SO FAR has disputed the fact that snow tires are better in snow and
ice. All everyone is saying is that they don't need them.
I work for a utility company and I HAVE to get to work in the worst
conditions. I've also never had a problem driving in snow and ice that was
below the front air dam on any car I have owned.
The biggest problem in these conditions is avoiding the idiots that don't
know how to drive in the snow and ice.
The only time I have ever needed anything more than a good ASR was in 1992,
when here in NJ we were encrusted in ice for several weeks. I went out and
got some studded snows (on my companies dime I might add) and they helped
me out tremendously. That was the only time I've ever NEEDED anything like
that.
In the blizzard of 1996, I drove my car through 36" of fresh white powder
in the Princeton, NJ, area. I was actually surprised I made it, but it
went well. All on ASR's.
What exactly do you do in the snow and ice to need snow tires? I mean, I
am a fairly assertive driver most of the time and there is nothing I can't
do in the snow.
Just last week we had 6" (a surprise) of the white stuff and I was driving
50-55 MPH on the highway, easily passing many SUV's in the snow-packed left
lane. Do you need to go faster than that in the snow???
Eric
one lesson: Brian, you are not comprehending what people are saying here.
NO ONE SO FAR has disputed the fact that snow tires are better in snow and
ice. All everyone is saying is that they don't need them.
I work for a utility company and I HAVE to get to work in the worst
conditions. I've also never had a problem driving in snow and ice that was
below the front air dam on any car I have owned.
The biggest problem in these conditions is avoiding the idiots that don't
know how to drive in the snow and ice.
The only time I have ever needed anything more than a good ASR was in 1992,
when here in NJ we were encrusted in ice for several weeks. I went out and
got some studded snows (on my companies dime I might add) and they helped
me out tremendously. That was the only time I've ever NEEDED anything like
that.
In the blizzard of 1996, I drove my car through 36" of fresh white powder
in the Princeton, NJ, area. I was actually surprised I made it, but it
went well. All on ASR's.
What exactly do you do in the snow and ice to need snow tires? I mean, I
am a fairly assertive driver most of the time and there is nothing I can't
do in the snow.
Just last week we had 6" (a surprise) of the white stuff and I was driving
50-55 MPH on the highway, easily passing many SUV's in the snow-packed left
lane. Do you need to go faster than that in the snow???
Eric
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:Did you even read either of these articles??? Here's the first paragraph
from the second one:
Yes, I read them both.
"Even if your car has traction control or an ABS braking system, those
features won't improve traction on snow and ice. Experts at The Tire
Rack say only snow tires will actually improve grip on snow and ice.
Although all-wheel-drive or front-wheel-drive is an advantage, you'll
still improve safety by swapping your summer or all-season tires for
winter ones. This is because snow tires have special tread designs that
help them bite into the snow. Snow tires also use a softer rubber
compound, so they stay flexible at lower temperatures."
That certainly doesn't support your anti-winter tire assertions.
I've never made an anti-winter tire assertion. I'm not against them,
I've said they are better than all-season tires in snow and ice, but
I've also said that all-seasons are more than adequate for my needs and
thus I don't need winter tires.
They lack a tread wear rating because they're not designed for
year-round use.
And because they wear so quickly consumers would be shocked at the numbers.
On your truck I can believe it, but on cars it's not true, at least not
in the absolute terms you proclaim. I can give you a perfect example,
the tires on my Elantra. The car is an '04 and I've driven both sets of
tires for four seasons (the winter season isn't over yet, but it's close
enough). My summer tires - the stock Michelins that came on the car -
are completely worn out and must be replaced. Actually, they really
should have been replaced before last season, but they just passed
inspection. In contrast, my winter tires still have 2/3 of their
original depth. They will last at least another season and perhaps two.
Tires wear by the mile not by the season.
Obviously, you're wrong, as the results on my car prove. I don't need a
reference, I have the tires to prove it. If it makes you happy, I'll
send you pictures of both. Your argument is simply a fabrication to
support your bias against winter tires.
You haven't provided any data to prove anything. You have provided no
mileages for the life of any tires, just "seasons" which is irrelevant.
Don't change the subject. I've already covered that ground in another post.
You aren't consistent. If you want the best possible performance, then
you must drive AWD along with your snow tires. If you aren't driving
AWD vehicles, then you are settling for less than the best.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:You didn't read this one either, did you? It supports my assertions much
more than yours.
Yes, I read it and it supports my assertions just fine.
What part of "The best were the all-wheel-drive cars, which reached
almost 20 mph sooner, on average, than the front-drive cars equipped
with winter tires." didn't you understand?
And what part of "Our advice. Consider an all-wheel-drive vehicle if you
live in a snowy area or want added peace of mind. For maximum traction,
equip it with winter tires. In less-snowy areas, front-wheel drive and a
set of winter tires should suffice. Mount winter tires on all four
wheels for balanced handling. Remove them after winter, since these
tires wear quickly on dry roads (plan on about three winters of use).
And be sure to opt for ABS on any vehicle." didn't you catch?
AWD is best in snowy areas. Winter tires should SUFFICE (emphasis added
so you can't miss it) in less-snow areas. "These tires (referring to
winter tires) WEAR QUICKLY on dry roads. Again, emphasis added since
you missed this the first time around.
The only thing they left out is that all-season tires also suffice in
most areas of the country.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:That's exactly what my experience has been.
I certainly wish the cars I've been forced to drive had something like
that on them. I have yet to find ANY ASR that comes close to the
performance of winter tires in snow. I have to wonder if you might think
differently if you had the chance to do back-to-back comparisons on the
same car(s), as I have? That always seems to be the stumbling block with
most people. As I've said before, the people I've convinced to try
winter tires have ALL been stunned at the difference. Essentially, they
didn't realize what they were missing, which is understandable. Tire
companies have done a great job of selling the "all season" myth.
There is no myth so it must have been a REALLY hard sell!
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:If it were merely an opinion, that would be true. I have the experiences
to back it up.
Your experiences are only the basis for your opinion. Many more of us
have experiences exactly counter to yours. I assert that the odds are
very high then that the majority of us are correct and you are not when
you assert that everyone needs winter tires.
Matt
M
Matt Whiting
Brian said:If you believe that, you're kidding yourself. Go back and read the
nonsense you've written.
Point out even one false or misleading statement I have made.
Matt